Super PACs

On this episode: What is a super PAC, and for that matter, what's a PAC? What are the rules they have to follow? Does spending money in an election count as free speech? We address campaign finance and the murky world of dark money with Dante Scala, political science professor at the University of New Hampshire. 

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TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was generated using an automated transcription service, and may contain typographical errors.

Civics 101

Episode 94:  Super PACs

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:23] I'm Virginia Prescott and this is Civics 101. The pod cast refresher course on the basics of American democracy. Political campaigns cost money. Lots of money. And the more you've got the more likely you are to be seen and heard by voters. A new player in campaign finance launched in 2010: the super PAC. These groups raise hundreds of millions to support candidates, while raising outrage from critics. So how do super PACs work and why are they so controversial? To find out we are asking Dante Scala. He's associate professor of political science and a fellow at the Carsey Center for Public Policy at the University of New Hampshire. Dante so great to have you in the studio.

Dante Scala: [00:01:03] Thank you very much. Thanks for coming in.

Virginia Prescott: [00:01:05] Before we get to a super PAC, what's a PAC?

Dante Scala: [00:01:08] So a PAC is a political action committee and that's a popular term for a committee that is organized and established in order to raise and spend money to elect candidates or perhaps to defeat candidates. They've been around for about seven decades. If you can go back to the first PAC which was established by a labor union to work for the re-election of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

[00:01:41] And so the PAC is really a work around around federal law because the labor union wanted to be careful not to violate federal law which did not allow unions to contribute directly to federal candidates. So the union wanted to support FDR but couldn't do it directly. So what do they do. They create this committee or PAC and they essentially take the money which is donated by say individual union members as opposed to the corporate union treasury itself and those members would contribute money into a bank account that was separate from say the union treasury. So that was the beginning of the political action committee. And they've been in existence ever since.

Virginia Prescott: [00:02:29] You said that was a workaround. So what are the kind of rules for PACs? You know how much money can a PAC accept or use for a campaign? How much of a candidate's campaign can come from PACs?

Dante Scala: [00:02:39] So currently a political action committee can receive up to five thousand dollars from say an individual in a given calendar year. Now there is no aggregate limit on how much they can raise or how much they can spend. But there are those individual limits. Also there are limits on how much a PAC can donate like they can donate for example again. Five thousand dollars to a candidate committee for a given election. They can also give more money. Fifteen thousand dollars say to a national party committee they could even donate to another PAC if they wish to. But the key thing about a PAC which keeps them from being super is that limit on how much an individual can donate and then how much that PAC can can accept from an individual.

Virginia Prescott: [00:03:40] OK so we're supersizing this now, we've got this super PAC. What exactly is a super PAC?

Dante Scala: [00:03:47] So a super PAC is one not a technical term used by say the Federal Election Commission. It was basically a journalist's invention that captured the idea but in some ways it's a different sort of animal entirely from a PAC.

[00:04:03] The difference between a Super PAC and PAC is that a super PAC can accept unlimited sums of money from a corporation, from a union, from some type of association, or even an individual. So they can raise unlimited sums of money from those places and then they can also spend unlimited sums of money to advocate for or against a political candidate.

[00:04:33] And basically they can do all that as long as they follow two rules. Number one a super PAC cannot donate money directly to a candidate and then two, and this gets rather murky rather quickly, the super PACs spending cannot be quote unquote coordinated with the candidate that they're trying to benefit.

[00:04:59] So as long as super PACs follow those two rules they can raise and spend unlimited amounts of money.

[00:05:08] Now important to note super PACs often are depicted as being outside groups and outside the political party structure. But it's probably better to understand it as, there is a connection there. Super PACs tend to be quite partisan. Better to understand them as being part of the political party structure, not the formal structure, but the informal party network.

Virginia Prescott: [00:05:32] I'd love to work through an example of that. First, can anyone create a SuperPAC?

Dante Scala: [00:05:36] Yes as long as you're willing to do the requisite paperwork and file it and so forth with the federal government anyone can create a super PAC. A few years ago a high school junior and a couple of his pals decided on a lark to create a super PAC. They filled out the paperwork and lo and behold the FEC contacted them some weeks later about one point or another about their super PAC and then they forsook the whole thing. The comedian Stephen Colbert created his own super PAC. It was called Americans for a better tomorrow, tomorrow. And and he did that of course you know to highlight what he saw as the absurdity of the campaign finance structure in the United States. But again anyone can create it.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:34] OK. I have a million dollars, right. I think the BLT should be established as America's official sandwich. And I start the All Americans for the Most American BLT. What can I do to further my sandwich agenda? I can't give money directly to a candidate's campaign, correct?

Dante Scala: [00:06:56] You cannot.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:57] OK. But can I run ads or make phone calls or send out mailers for a candidate as the the BLT PAC?

Dante Scala: [00:07:08] Right. So you as an individual could only give you know several thousand dollars to say a pro BLT candidate you want to support and let's say you want to do more. You can go and create say a direct mail campaign and you can shower the voters of the first congressional district with pro BLT candidate mailers and you can run television ads on behalf of that candidate you can set up a phone bank on behalf of that candidate.

[00:07:41] You could put together a volunteer organization to go door to door on behalf of that candidate as long as there is that separability or lack of coordination between your organization your pro BLT Super PAC and that candidate you're supporting. There's all sorts of campaign type activities that you can do that for the voter receiving the mail piece or the the door piece is indistinguishable.

Virginia Prescott: [00:08:11] Right. They don't see anything. Does the FEC require me to say "paid for by Americans for a better BLT tomorrow" or something?

Dante Scala: [00:08:20] There has to be some disclosure. Of course like in a mailing piece you have to be examining it with a magnifying glass to figure out where the money is coming from.

Virginia Prescott: [00:08:32] Can I help facilitate travel or speaking engagements for a candidate?

Dante Scala: [00:08:36] Let's say your pro-BLT candidate is running for Congress. That candidate can attend one of your fundraisers. That candidate can speak at the fundraiser. The candidate can be a featured guest. So you know all the invitations that you're sending out to people who you want to donate to your super PAC can say pro BLT candidate Smith is going to appear at this event.

[00:09:03] All of that can happen on behalf of the super PAC as long as the candidate herself is raising a limited amount of money. OK. So the candidate has to follow the old rules of the game but that doesn't prohibit someone from your super PAC say soliciting a donor who's just met the pro-BLT candidate and that donor wants to do more than just write a check to the candidate. There's no reason a superPAC official couldn't go to that donor and say, Would you like to do more? You can contribute to our super PAC and spend an additional say hundred thousand dollars, that both the donor and the superPAC know will go on behalf of that candidate.

Virginia Prescott: [00:09:46] All right, does my super PAC have to disclose the source of its funding you know say like my friend Oscar Meyer says oh I'll donate a million more dollars. Do I have to disclose that to the public?

Dante Scala: [00:09:56] Yes. If an individual donates to a super PAC that say you know Mr. Meyer donates to the super PAC that does have to be disclosed in FEC Federal Election Commission documents and it becomes public and so forth.

Virginia Prescott: [00:10:13] But would Oscar Meyer as a corporation have to be disclosed if they gave a million dollars?

Dante Scala: [00:10:19] Here's where it gets a bit murkier. So yes and no. Chances are what the corporation will do and what what we've seen so far when Citizens United debuted from the Supreme Court back in 2010 there was all sorts of concern about, corporations themselves are going to wade into politics. That hasn't happened the way we might think. You know we don't see Target say advertising for congressional candidates and so forth because you know the reason for that is it tends to be bad for business. Target doesn't want to alienate one political tribe or another especially these days.

[00:10:56] But what an individual or even organization could do, in order to avoid transparency, is donate to what are so-called dark money groups and these are technically known as 501 c organizations. And they're often described as nonprofit groups you know groups that are in existence to contribute to the social welfare that sort of thing. And so they are under federal law. Don't have to disclose their donors as long as they remain say a social welfare group as opposed to an overtly political group.

[00:11:34] So they can spend some money on politics but not all of their money on politics. So as long as they stay within the boundaries, that individual, let's say Mr. Meyer wants to contribute but doesn't want to disclose. So the individual Mr. Meyer gives to the 501 c, the 501 c can turn around and donate that money to the BLT super PAC. And so that's another way that money can be funneled in a way that avoids transparency.

[00:12:03] And this is where you know you go back to the logic of the Supreme Court majority back in Citizens United. That idea was well as long as there is disclosure, some of the Justices thought, as long as there's disclosure what's the harm in allowing individuals to donate large amounts of money? Isn't that basically an exercise of free speech as long as there is disclosure? Now the difficulty now is we have individuals contributing large large large amounts of money without disclosure. And that's where people get very nervous because you have large amounts of money changing hands and no one can follow at least not very easily.

Virginia Prescott: [00:12:45] Let's just clarify though you mentioned the 2010 decision Citizens United. Is that the sort of dawn of the super PAC?

Dante Scala: [00:12:53] It's part of the dawn. It's usually the one that gets the most attention right in part because Democrats and Barack Obama himself when he was president focused on Citizens United.

[00:13:03] But it's only part of the equation. So the Citizens United case, Supreme Court says there are no limits on corporations making independent expenditures. It's unconstitutional. So corporations and unions can now spend directly in federal elections.

[00:13:20] There was a second federal court decision that took place below the Supreme Court level, at the appeals court level, that was also important. It was called the Speech Now dot org decision and that removed the cap on how much an individual donor could contribute to an independent expenditure group. And later that year the FEC the Federal Election Commission which again is the federal agency that oversees campaign finance regulations basically said well here's how we interpret the Speech Now ruling. If you're a political committee, if you're a corporation, if you're a union, you can make an unlimited contribution to a super PAC or as it's technically known an independent expenditure only committee.

[00:14:08] So to understand the super PAC it's those two cases together that paved the way for what we have now.

Virginia Prescott: [00:14:15] And how much money we're talking about Dante, like how much money spent on super PACs in just election 2016?

Dante Scala: [00:14:24] Yeah so in 2016 I mean we saw that outside groups not formally connected to a political party spent more than 1.4 billion dollars. And that's you know all the races you know presidential races as well as say congressional races and that is up from about 1 billion dollars in 2012. And again these are the super PACs plus the 501 c so-called dark money organizations all working together. So there's a lot of money spent by these groups.

Virginia Prescott: [00:14:58] So these watchdog groups like Open Secrets and you mentioned people feared that Citizens United opened the door for corporate money to go in and influence elections. What about the case for super PACs. What's behind the reason that we have them and that it is OK?

Dante Scala: [00:15:15] A big part of the defense of super PACs is a defense of free speech and that goes back to the simple definition that spending money is equal to free speech and that if you tell a donor that you can only spend a thousand dollars on behalf of pro BLT candidates that if you prevent them from spending more of their money that you're essentially restricting their free speech rights.

Virginia Prescott: [00:15:48] Has the super PAC changed our electoral system or the way we do elections?

[00:15:53] It has allowed big donors, the very wealthy, to have even more of an impact on races because what we find with super PAC funding is that a disproportionate amount comes from a very small number of people.

[00:16:13] A lot of super PACs are essentially, though, extensions of campaigns themselves. You know there are more ideological super PACs like Club for Growth for example on the conservative side. But a lot of super PACs really you know they haven't had necessarily the disruptive influence in terms of overturning the way that candidates do business.

[00:16:36] Now they've given candidates an even easier way though to raise lots and lots of money relatively quickly. One could argue that has had something of a level playing field effect, like say in the presidential primary for example New Hampshire Public Radio did some good reporting on say the candidacy of Carly Fiorina, who is a Republican running in a very crowded field. She wasn't very well funded compared to others. And in a previous generation Carly Fiorina had to go to lots and lots of individual donors and collect a few thousand dollars apiece, that takes a long time to raise significant money.

[00:17:17] Now with a super PAC that Fiorina had she was able to get a lot of money from a relatively few people which freed her up to pursue other campaign activities. So one effect of super PACs, intended or unintended, has made it easier for candidates to do business.

[00:17:37] Now some people would argue that this has weakened political parties and that perhaps what Super PACs have done have made candidates even less tied to political parties than they used to be and maybe we need more control for our democracy to work.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Welfare

Welfare is one of the nation's most contentious and least understood social programs. What began as support for single mothers and their children has throughout history been a target for stigmatization and budget cuts. Premilla Nadasen is author of Welfare in The United States and she joined us to better understand the history and potential future of the program.

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TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was generated using an automated transcription service, and may contain typographical errors.

Civics 101

Episode 93: WELFARE TRANSCRIPT

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:00] I'm Virginia Prescott and this is Civics 101 the podcasts refresher on the basics of how our democracy works. Welfare is one of the nation's most contentious and least understood social programs. What began as support for single mothers and their children has throughout history been a target for stigmatization and budget cuts. Today we're going to get some background on welfare and here's some data on the program's relationship to poverty. Premilla Nadasen is Professor of History at Barnard College and author of welfare in the United States, and here to help. Premilla, welcome to Civics 101.

Premilla Nadasen: [00:00:33] Thank you very much.

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:34] We're starting with the basics although there's a lot to it. What is welfare?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:00:39] That's a really great question. I think at the core we have to think about welfare as a way for us to provide economic security to provide a safety net for the most vulnerable citizens in the United States.

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:53] When did it begin as we know it?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:00:56] Welfare actually has a very long history. For much of U.S. history the care for the poor for the unemployed for those who are unable to take care of themselves was a local concern so local districts often with the help of charities would take care of the poor would provide housing or food. In the 1920s we see the emergence of something called Mothers pensions programs. These were state level programs that provided assistance primarily to single mothers and their children. The welfare system as we understand it today began in the 1930s in the midst of the Great Depression when Franklin Delano Roosevelt was president. He passed a piece of legislation called the Social Security Act in 1935 and that created the Aid to Families with Dependent Children program.

Virginia Prescott: [00:01:48] So Social Security and welfare often get lumped together. Do they belong together?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:01:54] They're actually very different kinds of programs so Social Security as we speak about it today is really a program for the elderly. It's a program that people pay into although it is not fully funded through personal contributions. And once people retire they do receive a Social Security payment from the federal government. AFDC or Aid to Families with Dependent Children is a program that is what we called means tested and categorical. That is you have to fall below a certain poverty threshold in order to qualify for AFDC. And you have to be a single parent with children with a child or with children. AFDC no longer exists as we understand it is no longer called that, it's called TANF, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families.

Virginia Prescott: [00:02:43] What was the primary goal of welfare when it started?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:02:47] The primary goal of welfare was to provide financial support for poor single mothers who did not have a male head of household who was working and who could support them. It provided a monthly stipend initially just for the children. And a few years later in the 1940s it expanded to also provide a stipend for mothers. The vast majority of recipients in the very earliest years were white women white single mothers. Women of color were either excluded completely from AFDC or if they did receive it as was the case with some African-American women in the south they were kicked off of the welfare rolls during cotton picking season. And so welfare was actually rooted in the idea of women's roles as mothers that women did in fact work. They had a primary responsibility to take care of children. This was racialized because white women had historically been seen as mothers whereas women of color especially African-American women had historically worked welfare when it started actually offered a very meager stipend. So many women who were on the welfare rolls didn't get enough to support their family so they would often do side work as a way to supplement their income. Despite some of the weaknesses with the early welfare program I think it was a very very important program because it did provide something of a safety net especially for poor single mothers but it also was I think recognition of the social value of mothering.

Virginia Prescott: [00:04:26] That seems consistent with American values that very pro-family idea. You said it was racialized when and why did welfare become controversial?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:04:37] Welfare started to become controversial around 1960 or so the term welfare queen was coined in the 1970s and this was the stereotype of a black single mother who people believed was lazy who had multiple children by multiple fathers who was a drain on the public coffers. And this was a term that was popularized by Ronald Reagan in the 70s. And it really embodies the idea of the undeserving black single mother. That image though of the welfare queen is something that was rooted in an earlier period of the 1960s and beginning in the 1960s when we first begin to see public opposition to welfare. Prior to that welfare was not a controversial program but in the 1960s we begin to see states launching fraud investigations to examine and ferret out people who were cheating the welfare system. We begin to see more discussions about race in terms of welfare so welfare becomes tied to the politics of race. There's a particular concern about African-American and Puerto Rican women who are deemed undeserving of assistance.

Virginia Prescott: [00:05:54] Ronald Reagan among others that was one of those who pointed out fraud that there were women bilking the government of hundreds of thousands of dollars. So any truth to those kind of allegations and what kind of percentage of fraud happens in the welfare system compared to other government programs?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:06:10] There's always a degree of fraud. There's a degree of fraud in every single program public or private. And so I would never say there was no fraud but studies show that rates of fraud in the welfare system are minuscule. In fact the vast majority of people who are on welfare don't really want to be on welfare. If they had an option to be able to support their children in some other fashion or if they could get jobs in fact that's what they would choose to do. So there have been numerous investigations about welfare fraud and even in the 1960s there was very little evidence that there ever was fraud.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:47] I want to pick up on that idea of states debating welfare and welfare payments. Now this is a federal program. States control the spending. What are some of the ways that they wanted to curb enrollment?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:07:00] Well once women of color started applying for and receiving welfare assistance there was a concerted effort on the part of state to try to limit the number of women who were on welfare. So we see in the 1960s that welfare is becoming more and more punitive it's moving away from the intended mission of supporting single mothers towards one of sanctioning them and getting off of welfare. And states used a number of different strategies to do this. They use something called a suitable home rule that they passed locally where the caseworker would go into a recipient's home and try to determine if in fact the recipient had improper standards of housekeeping perhaps the house was dirty or perhaps the children didn't look like they had been fed or for one reason or another. This would be grounds not to improve home life but actually to simply cut the recipient off of welfare assistance. Another rule that was used was the man in the House rule so caseworkers would show up sometimes in the middle of the night. And these were referred to as midnight raids and they would try to determine if there was any evidence of male presence in the household they would look for a pair of men's shoes under the bed or a razor in the bathroom and if they found this it was evidence for the case worker that the woman had a relationship with a man. And the assumption was that this man would be able to support the family. And then another way that states would try to remove families from the welfare rolls was through the implementation of work requirements. So we begin to see in the 1960s for the first time states requiring that recipients either take job training or actually be employed. And I think this is really significant because this suggests the ways in which states began to think about removing people and I think began to undercut this idea about the importance of motherhood and women staying home to raise children.

Virginia Prescott: [00:09:16] Let me just make sure I understand you said that aid to families with dependent children ended. That was the 1996 reform?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:09:24] That's right. So in 1996 Congress passed and President Bill Clinton signed a piece of legislation that was known as a Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act and that transformed AFDC or what we call welfare today into block grants for states. It was renamed Temporary Assistance to Needy Families. And what this did is it took the block of money the states were getting for welfare and it allowed states to do a lot of what they wanted with it so states could really well their own welfare program. There were no longer federal mandates about how many recipients ought to be covered. About who was eligible. In fact federal mandates now actually limited welfare assistance. So along with this change states said that recipients could no longer remain on welfare for more than 5 years or so there was a lifetime limit of five years on welfare receipt. They now required that states put recipients to work. So recipients now have to work 30 hours a week. The legislation also attempted to promote marriage. So I think it's interesting to think about the shift because it suggests that the government now laid the ultimate responsibility for poverty with the families themselves. Poverty as at its core as was understood in the 1996 legislation was an individual problem and that if in fact people married if in fact they had job training the assumption was that they would be fine.

Virginia Prescott: [00:11:05] How many families receive that Temporary Assistance for Needy Families or TANF today?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:11:12] Today there are about 4 million recipients on TANF, about one point five million families and that number has declined dramatically since welfare reform there were about thirteen point five million families who were receiving welfare assistance in 1996. So there are far fewer families who are on welfare assistance today.

Virginia Prescott: [00:11:39] Are there far fewer families who are living in poverty today as well?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:11:43] No. In fact today only about 10 percent of families who are poor are receiving welfare assistance. There are about 41 million Americans who are living in poverty today it's about 13 percent of the population and 18 percent of children today are poor. And I think an even more alarming figure is the number of families who are living in what's called extreme poverty in the United States today. And this is a figure that suggests that families who are living on less than two dollars per person per day which means that they essentially have no income. The number of individuals in extreme poverty has doubled since 1996. Today in the United States we have one point five million people living in extreme poverty.

Virginia Prescott: [00:12:38] The House and Senate passed a joint budget resolution this fall with significant cuts to welfare programs and there were arguments on the floor for rolling back or even eliminating social safety net programs. So what Premilla do you think is the future of welfare?

Premilla Nadasen: [00:12:54] If we look at the current tax bill in the current budget it does not look very promising. I think there are some misconceptions however about the cost of welfare as it relates to the federal budget. More broadly today TANF is about point five percent of the total federal budget. And we can compare that to Social Security the program for the elderly which is 24 percent of the federal budget. So TANF the program we have for poor single parents and their children is actually a very very small amount of what our federal government spends. I do think that in this moment when we see more and more families who are living in poverty who are unable to care for themselves when there are fewer options for child care when it's very very difficult to try to support a family on minimum wage. In fact the minimum wage right now the federal minimum wage is seven dollars and 25 cents. If you work 40 hours a week 52 weeks of a year you will earn fifteen thousand dollars a year. The poverty threshold for three people in this country is twenty thousand dollars. So even if you work full time at a minimum wage job job you are not earning enough to support your family. So I think we have to think about ways in which we can provide some kind of supports to the poor and I think we're moving in the wrong direction.

Virginia Prescott: [00:14:25] Premilla, thank you very much for joining us.

Premilla Nadasen: [00:14:27] Thank you Virginia.

Virginia Prescott: [00:14:28] Premilla Nadasen is a professor of history at Barnard College and author of Welfare in the United States.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Lightning Round

Today, we celebrate our one-year anniversary with the first annual Civics 101 lightning round, in which we answer all the little questions you sent us that we never got around to answering in a full episode. Joining us to test his civics knowledge against your queries is Dave Alcox, social studies teacher at Milford High School and friend of the podcast. 

Plus, stick around after the show for an exclusive taste of the secret, long-form Civics 101 theme song! 

Lightning Round with Virginia Prescott

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TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was generated using an automated transcription service, and may contain typographical errors.

Civics 101

Episode 92 - LIGHTNING ROUND

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:23] I'm Virginia Prescott and this is Civics 101.

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:25] The podcast refresher course on the basics of how our democracy works. While I cannot believe I'm saying this but Civics 101 is celebrating its one year anniversary. We published our first episode exactly one year ago today with the new president. Then in the White House promising to shake things up there is a lot of confusion about what could and couldn't be shaken. We decided to do something really simple: answer your questions. Now if there's anything we've learned one year later it's that trying to answer one question about how government was designed to work raises like six other questions. And in that spirit today's show is a special celebratory one. We get so many questions from listeners that we can't possibly dedicate full episodes to every single one so we present the first annual Civics 101 lightning round. We do have a true believer in all things civic here to tear through some questions. Dave Alcox teaches civics and social studies here in New Hampshire. He's a former New Hampshire teacher of the Year and won the American Civic Education Teacher Awards. That's the national award. Maybe you remember him from Episode 31. How a Bill Becomes a Law.

Virginia Prescott: [00:01:33] All right Dave ready to go.

Dave Alcox: [00:01:34] Yep.

Virginia Prescott: [00:01:36] So we're celebrating Civics 101's first birthday What do presidents generally do for their birthdays?

Dave Alcox: [00:01:41] Well honestly it depends on who the president is that could be anything from having celebrities and musicians flocking to the White House. But in the old days you know it was pretty modest Dolly Madison served vanilla and peach ice cream on James Madison's birthday party. First first lady to introduce ice cream to the White House. So it just depends. You know President Obama's had dignitaries and you know Beyonce and people you know come to the White House. I think part of it depends on the first lady what kind of party does she want to throw. You know for the president.

Virginia Prescott: [00:02:13] I think maybe we should move on because this is a lightning round after all. So if a president serves two terms in office can that person run again as a vice president?

[00:02:24] It could be considered a potential constitutional crisis. On one hand you could say yes and on one hand you could say no. I think and many scholars feel that if this was ever a challenge it would really be up to the Supreme Court to decide it. This is one of those gray areas in fact Hillary had thought a little bit about having Bill Clinton run as vice president. Ronald Reagan had thought about having Gerald Ford run as his running mate. And when asked you know there was political turmoil like well you don't want to. You don't want your presidency or the or the primaries to be marred by all the constitutional questions here. So he ends up picking George H.W. Bush who does serve those eight years and then later on becomes president for the next four years which was OK.

Virginia Prescott: [00:03:07] You said it could be a constitutional crisis. What is the constitutional crisis.

Dave Alcox: [00:03:11] Well a constitutional crisis. It could be a number of things. One is one constitutional crisis is when the Constitution doesn't say what the rule is. For example one of the inherent powers of the president is to protect the union. So when people looked at the perpetual union that Lincoln formed in 1860 when the South wanted to leave and he said no it's you know it's like the roach motel you get in and you can never leave you know a lot of people thought in 1860 that the union was sort of like an enhanced Articles of Confederation and that you know it was like a gymnasium membership you could come in when you wanted to leave you could leave and Lincoln's like no it's become perpetual. And obviously the North wins the war so sometimes might makes right and you could sit there and say well that's what we have as a perpetual union. Sometimes the constitutional meaning gets into question which is another area for example like with impeachment what high crimes and misdemeanors. Well what's the meaning of that, that can come into question. So sometimes like a constitutional crisis can be like when there's no clear meaning of that and other times when one of the if there is is the breakdown of one of the branches you know when Andy Jackson says I don't believe in Cherokee Nation versus West versus Georgia or Wister versus Georgia and he said to John Marshall you know have your army stop my army when he wanted to move the Indians and the Cherokee wouldn't you know the Trail of Tears becoming one of our.

Virginia Prescott: [00:04:28] Most horrific.

Dave Alcox: [00:04:29] Arguably one of our biggest failures of our country. That's the executive branch breaking down not following you know what we would say is judicial review. When the court looked at these cases.

Virginia Prescott: [00:04:40] Are we in a constitutional crisis now?

Dave Alcox: [00:04:42] Well I think the constitutional crisis that we see now can be something along the lines of President Trump in the end the ban on, the travel ban. The courts have ruled that what he did was constitutional. Well that acting as president he had the power to do that whether the ban itself was constitutional is another story that the court would have to determine. But in terms of what the presidential power was the court say that he did have the power to do that. So in my eyes that's where you'll see a constitutional crisis. You could also see a constitutional crisis with the whole Russian investigation. You know if if there are certain pardons does the president have the power to pardon people to be you know could that be considered obstruction of justice. So there could be a constitutional crisis. You know in those in those areas.

Virginia Prescott: [00:05:25] All right we have to move on. What are think tanks?

Dave Alcox: [00:05:28] Think tanks are actually groups that are basically non-profit groups. There's about at last count almost 2000 think tank groups Cato Institute, Brookings, Heritage Foundation. There's you know there's politically leaning left and right groups and basically all they do is study study study. They research topics they offer opinions. They give some insight. You know if you were to do this for foreign policy if you want to do this for domestic policy so think tanks I wouldn't compare them to a lobbyist group or a special interest group that might have a slant. They're just there. There are a group of people like you could be in a think tank and you know offer your opinion after doing research on a particular topic.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:12] Next question what does diplomatic immunity diplomatic mean?

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:17] Diplomatic Immunity basically is what countries will grant immunity to diplomats from other countries to protect them for example.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:25] I mean from what.

Dave Alcox: [00:06:26] Any types of laws that they would be.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:29] Arrested. Prosecuted.

Dave Alcox: [00:06:29] Exactly. You don't want Massachusetts grabbing the ambassador from Denmark. So ideally we want to handle that at the federal level and we want to give diplomatic immunity and let let the federal governments deal with any types of crimes or anything. You know diplomats may do.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:47] All right the historic question. Did President Taft really get stuck in a bathtub.

Dave Alcox: [00:06:53] Well as many people probably know he was our largest president. He's also the only president to go on to become chief justice of the Supreme Court. But reality is probably not. But he was buried in a piano case. You know you're talking about somebody who kind of topped about 400 pounds you know. But a brilliant man. And on the other side of this mountain on the other side of the coin is you have James Madison at five three, hundred and five pounds soaking wet. You know presidents come in all shapes and sizes.

Virginia Prescott: [00:07:21] Next, what is martial law?

Dave Alcox: [00:07:24] Well martial law is when some area of the country is put under military law. Civil rights are suspended. You know if you look at somebody like James Madison or say every word in the Constitution is a struggle between liberty and order. How do we do liberty versus order. Generally when the security of the nation is at risk individual liberty does take a hit. Martial law is generally put in to try to protect if there's extreme circumstances.

Virginia Prescott: [00:07:49] Like what would be a case when that happened in the U.S.?

Dave Alcox: [00:07:51] Well San Francisco earthquake of 1906 is one you can also look at when Little Rock happened when Eisenhower sent the hundred and first airborne... to protect the Central High students you had Orval Faubus going "oh my god what is going on with our country we're under martial law." And it's like Eisenhower was like Look Orval if you had only protected these people's rights I wouldn't have to. But you know he was a segregationist who was running for re-election so he couldn't afford to integrate at that time and so sometimes the president as as the chief law enforcer has to step up and put the smack down.

Virginia Prescott: [00:08:29] Can a sitting president be challenged in the primary?

Dave Alcox: [00:08:32] Absolutely.

Virginia Prescott: [00:08:33] Has it happened?

Dave Alcox: [00:08:35] It has. You've seen George Buchanan challenge George H.W. Bush in 92. You also see Ted Kennedy in it in 1980 with Jimmy Carter. You might see it happen in 2020. It wouldn't shock me if the Republican Party wanted to forward a candidate for 2020.

Virginia Prescott: [00:08:52] Next how many times can Congress try to pass the same bill.

Dave Alcox: [00:08:56] Well if you listen to Civics 101 podcast on how about how a bill becomes a law. You know if you want to go through the process you can go over and over and over again. You know part of that is sometimes times change. You know a new president in office might have a new platform and so there's nothing wrong with throwing you know a bill back in the hopper and having it pulled out and have him go through committee in general. You know the floor and up to the president and it can just happen over and over again until something happens.

Virginia Prescott: [00:09:28] Next is someone born overseas to American parents an American citizen.

Dave Alcox: [00:09:33] The quick answer is yes and there's two ways on citizenship. It's jus solis and jus sanguinus. Jus olis is of the soil if you're born on the soil or born anywhere in U.S. territories because it's of the soil. Then you are automatically a U.S. citizen. We have birthright citizenship that way. Jus sanguinus is of the blood. So long as a parent is one of the more the parents are American. Then you also through jus sanguinus get that bloodline as well.

Virginia Prescott: [00:10:08] OK. Would getting rid of the Electoral College be a good idea.

Dave Alcox: [00:10:14] How long do you have? It depends on who you ask and it depends on what the you know what the situation is I mean I'll give you the pros and cons. People who like it say it makes the one national election that we have for president 50 separate elections and it makes the president to be have to go to all 50 states because every vote including New Hampshire's four electoral votes are important. You out of the 538 electoral votes. You need 270 to become president. So it makes every state count. The people who don't like it say you know back in 1787 we had three million people now we have 315 million people. California has I think 54 electoral votes. So if you win 51 to 49 percent in California you get all 54 electoral votes. It's not a percentage. You look at like Maine who has a split model says you know by district you get those electoral votes and winner gets the two Senate votes. Why can't we do that nationwide, some people say, well you know if you look at the 2012 election Mitt Romney actually wins over Barack Obama if you go by district and that's part of gerrymandering and how we split up districts and so on like that. So it depends on which side of the fence it's historical it's traditional it's something that we've had you know embedded as just a check in our Constitution. I don't want to start any brawls out there and I don't want people to you know send hate mail into NHPR.

Virginia Prescott: [00:11:32] Too late.

Dave Alcox: [00:11:33] So I'll let you the voter, those those are the two sides you have.

Virginia Prescott: [00:11:37] All right. Next. how much leeway do presidents have to redecorate the Oval Office. Are there items that must stay.

Dave Alcox: [00:11:44] Obviously the presidential desk is the big one. You want to have the resolute desk there. But you know the White House themselves they do get a budget. You know they do get a budget to redecorate the entire White House. I think what the Oval Office. There's a genuine respect for history there.

Virginia Prescott: [00:12:02] Is there a website where we can go in order to see the voting records of my senators and representatives.

Dave Alcox: [00:12:09] Absolutely. In fact in article one of which is the legislative part of the Constitution they have to have a public record. There's a lot of websites like congress.gov handy web sites like ballotpedia.org to basically follow. You could plug in your Senators and Representatives they'll tell you who's voting when and what their votes are about. I think the media now has allowed so much more transparency for the individual to kind of keep you know a watchdog if you will. There's a ton of watchdog groups out there but it allows the individual to actually be a watchdog themselves.

Virginia Prescott: [00:12:43] All right so imagine; you know we have the Avengers, right the team of superheroes.

Dave Alcox: [00:12:46] Yes.

Virginia Prescott: [00:12:47] So imagine 'the founders'. Who would be on your elite superhero founders squad.

Dave Alcox: [00:12:51] Well it's funny because I'm a huge comic book fan and so are my students. We've talked about this before actually and the original Avengers were Hulk, Thor and Iron Man and then Captain America actually comes on Avengers issue number 4. Those end up being the big four and then there's people that come and go and all that Captain America's belief, truth justice the American way and that patriotism should be important. That has to be James Madison. And what's funny is Steve Rogers starts out as a really frail person anyway and Madison was 103 pounds soaking wet, he spoke very softly because he was constantly sick. He finished Princeton in two years instead of four because he was studying 18 hours a day. But he also writes in Federalist 10 you know let's let's elect officials whose true wisdom will best discern any partial or temporary considerations. And what he meant by that was you know people who do the right thing. And so Captain America has to be in my eyes James Madison. Thor is the strong one with the hammer and almost godlike that could easily be Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. Jefferson's a Virginia farmer and he was pretty jacked a lot of people don't know. But Jefferson was probably going to be Thor. Franklin and Hamilton on the other hand could be Tony Stark. You know Tony Stark is Iron Man is a playboy intelligent inventor. Franklin is this but so is Alexander Hamilton. You know both of them had that Playboy tendency. The Hulk was kind of a big brutish kind of guy. Jeez it's hard to say. I think I would probably put in even though I didn't go to the convention, I'd probably put it like Samuel Adams or Patrick Henry because both of them could just pick a fight. Thomas Paine as well could just pick a fight but that would be my All-Star Squadron and if I had to put together you know those four people you have really in the classroom and actually the black widow. You have to put Abigail Adams as the Black Widow because she absolutely kept the farm together. She was amazing. So shoutout to Abby, Abby Adams.

Virginia Prescott: [00:14:49] OK speaking of shoutouts, I believe you have something to celebrate.

Dave Alcox: [00:14:52] Well Milford High School We the People competed two weeks ago in the New Hampshire state competition and they won. They beat teams from Hollis Brookline and John Stark. So it is it is just a shout out to them. So all you folks that are you know Milford High We the People and even if you're We the People alumni please keep up your civic values and traditions and let's keep New Hampshire Granite and keep it strong.

Virginia Prescott: [00:15:17] Big whoop to Milford High School. OK. Quickly. What civic concept do you wish every American understood.

Dave Alcox: [00:15:23] Well a lot of my students we've talked about this a number of times. And right off the bat we had a number of kids say civic discourse. That if they can actually have people communicate better, play nice in the sandbox, people aren't doing that anymore. You see that with divisiveness and you know there's no bipartisanship anymore. There's no there's no Ronald Reagans and Tip O'Neills duking it out and then later having a beverage and you know a barbecue. So they believe that this has kind of transcended to the American population too and that we really believe that communication without a doubt is important. It's OK to have ideas. You know John Locke, Montascue, Hobbes, they had tons of ideas. It's how you take those ideas and apply them well.

Virginia Prescott: [00:16:07] Dave Wilcox you are my new lightning round superhero. Thank you so much.

Dave Alcox: [00:16:11] My pleasure thank you so much for having this forum. Because I think everybody wins.

[00:16:17] Dave Alcox teaches social studies at Milford High School in New Hampshire. Well as part of a Civics 101's first birthday celebration. We've got a big revelation for you here. Kind of a director's cut. I'm gonna call it our civics 101 theme is composed by Taylor Quimby. He's senior producer. He's a musician. He's a dad, he's a fantastic colleague and he wrote an extended version of the Civics 101 theme.

Taylor Quimby: [00:16:43] Well you know it wasn't... this could have just straight up the theme but I think after after we played it the first time for the team it quickly we realized that it was maybe a little too.. a little too fun like we were going for fun. It was a little too fun.

Virginia Prescott: [00:16:57] Civic you mean civics can't be fun.

Taylor Quimby: [00:16:59] Civics can be fun but this is this was. It's over the top.

Virginia Prescott: [00:17:25] Yep. I don't think we could listen to that every single time.

Taylor Quimby: [00:17:28] No no. I remember it so I, I was working on my little home studio for like a half day and I finished just the barbershop quartet like Civics 101 beginning and I thought that's pretty good. And then I was like but what if I just keep playing and then I just kept going and going and going and by the time I was finished I was like there is there is no way people will go for this theme. You know we've actually done each of the episodes I mentioned there.. What does the chief of staff do. Gerrymandering. How does an amendment get made.

Virginia Prescott: [00:18:03] Press corps, what does the press corps.

Taylor Quimby: [00:18:04] Yeah we've done all those

Virginia Prescott: [00:18:05] Yeah but I like that you rhymed them. You know what is the gerrymander. I know I need an answer.

Taylor Quimby: [00:18:10] Well as an amateur songwriter rhyming is in the toolkit. By the way my inspiration for the part that nobody has heard up until now was the Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego theme song.

Taylor Quimby: [00:18:23] Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego. You remember?

Virginia Prescott: [00:18:26] I think you kind of hit it there Taylor.

Taylor Quimby: [00:18:28] Yeah but I will always forever in my head have this stuck in my head. Diggita diggita diggita dum dum.

Virginia Prescott: [00:18:35] And if you're a superfan you can download it and listen to it every time you play Civics 101.

Taylor Quimby: [00:18:39] Indeed.

Virginia Prescott: [00:18:39] and that wraps up the first annual Civics 101 Lightning Round. Thank you so much to everybody who sent in your excellent questions all year long. Seriously we could not do this without your enthusiasm and your support and we are thrilled to hear that so many school systems across the country are using Civics 101 to teach civics especially in places where it is no longer on the curriculum. Please do keep your questions coming. You can write us at Civics 101 podcast dot org. Today's show was produced by Ben Henry executive producer is Taylor Quimby music from broke for free. I'm Virginia Prescott. Proud to say that civics 101 is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

The Two-Party System

There are lots of political parties in the United States - so how come we pretty much only hear about two? What is the 'two-party system' and why does it hold sway? Is it an intentional part of governmental design, or is this simply how history shook out? In this episode, we'll explore those questions, hear from an original member of a third party, and dig into something called Duverger's Law - which explains why two parties tend to dominate in American politics.  Our guest is Civics 101 Senior Producer Taylor Quimby. This episode also features Hans Noel, political scientist at Georgetown University, and Lenny Brody, a member of the steering comittee at The Justice Party.  

Two-Party System with Virginia Prescott

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TRANSCRIPT

Civics 101

Episode 91: The Two-Party System

This transcript was generated using an automated transcription service, and may contain typographical errors.

Virginia Prescott:  [00:00:22] I’m Virginia Prescott and this is Civics 101, the podcast refresher course on the basics of American democracy. Today we're hoping to answer a number of questions about the structure of American government.

Sherry:  [00:00:35] Hi my name is Sherry and I live in Dayton Ohio.

Ronin: Hi this is Ronin from Brooklyn, New York.

Sherry: [00:00:40] How and why did we end up with a two party system?

Ronin: Was that by design or did it just happen over time

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:48] Civics 101’s Senior Producer Taylor Quimby has been looking into this and he's here to walk us through. Hey Taylor.

Taylor Quimby: Hi.

Virginia Prescott: So is the two party system spelled out in the Constitution.

Taylor Quimby: [00:00:58] It isn't. And I think right off the bat it's worth saying that this two party system that we have in the U.S. is not by design. It is incidental. There are two party systems in some other countries as well. Of course not with Democrats and Republicans as those two parties but places where two parties hold sway. These systems are born of our institutions rather than built into it. And in fact George Washington himself was against political factions as he called them. But you did regardless see the formation of political parties almost right after the founding of the country. So I guess when people say the two party system they're not specifically talking about a system in which Republicans and Democrats dominate political representation or a system in which only two parties are allowed to hold political power. They're really talking about a system in which for a whole bunch of reasons there are only two major parties that dominate at any given time. I think that's really important.

Virginia Prescott: [00:01:52] So in a system like this, whatever they're called, this bifurcated system, the parties can change? I mean it's not always the same two parties?

Taylor Quimby: [00:02:00] Exactly. They can and they have. And the first two major parties in the U.S. were the Federalists, led by John Adams and Alexander Hamilton early on, and the Democratic Republicans, also called the Jeffersonians, who as you might suspect were led by Thomas Jefferson, and those two parties held sway for about 30 years with the Democratic Republicans winning almost all of those elections. Then things got disrupted and the Whigs, which you might have heard of, and the Democratic Party, became the two major parties for about 25 years in the early to mid 1800's.  And then around the Civil War the Republican Party replaced the weak party. Basically they were very similar very similar platforms except the Whigs didn't want to fight slavery and Republicans were vocal abolitionists. And from that point on you had the two dominant parties that we have now the Democrats on the one hand and Republicans on the other.

Virginia Prescott:  I’m just trying to wrap my brain around the fact that they were the Democratic Republicans very closely aligned at one time.

Taylor Quimby: So it's very confusing with all the different party names... the Democratic Republicans are different than the Democrats and the Republicans. And I think that sometimes is the, a piece of the confusion when we're talking about parties in general.

Virginia Prescott: [00:03:13] But there's nothing legislatively right, you know there's nothing constitutionally that stops a third party from running or from forming?

Taylor Quimby: [00:03:18] No, not technically. There are dozens of active third parties in the U.S. You've heard of the Libertarian Party, the Green Party. There's also many that you have probably never heard of, the legal marijuana now party, the Peace and Freedom Party, the Modern Whig Party is actually a thing. So people are taking the old Whig Party into the present sort of. But you will find that even those prominent third parties that I mentioned, they have no representation in Congress.

Virginia Prescott: [00:03:42] Well this is a big criticism of American politics, that we are in this two party system and it sort of forces ideas into one or two camps so why do we not have legitimate third party.

Taylor Quimby:  [00:03:53] Well that gets to something, and this sounds kind of like a physics class in this moment, called Duverger’s Law, which you know might sound a little stodgy but it's very interesting.

Virginia Prescott: Sounds very French.

Taylor Quimby: Indeed. It's named after him man in Maurice Duverger. He was a French sociologist who wrote about these sort of party systems in the 50s and 60s, and then later folks came up with this law based off of his work. Now I'm going to simplify this a bit but there are two main pieces to Duverger’s Law and the first one is mechanical. Basically the law says that certain types of voting systems tend to favor the formation of two dominant parties. Those systems are plurality rule, where whoever has the most votes wins it all.

Virginia Prescott: [00:04:34] That's theoretically the American system.

Taylor Quimby: [00:04:36] Yep, and single member district voting where a single member is elected per district. And again, basically we're saying the two systems that we use in the US. So I spoke to a guy named Hans Noel, a political scientist at Georgetown University and he explained it to me this way.

Hans Noel: [00:04:55]  Whichever party can come in first with just 30 percent. They're going to, they're going to of course succeed, are going to send people to a legislature and so forth. And the second, they're the best bet to be the other party. Occasionally they'll come in first some other district. But if you're coming in third or fourth then you're never going to be in a position to come in first and you're not going to get seats at all.

Taylor Quimby: [00:05:10] I would sort of summarize the mechanical aspect this way: which is that because we have a winner take all system, let's say in the presidential election is the easiest example, say say it broke down quite a bit differently than it does in politics today. And you had the Republicans getting 40 percent, the Democrats getting about 40 percent, a little less than, a third party getting 20 percent. Even if they were getting 20 percent of the vote in the entirety of the U.S., election after election after election after election they would never have won the office once. So you could have a big swath of people that really do believe in this third party, and yet still the deck is stacked. So that's the mechanical side of things. Now Duverger’s Law also has a psychological element, which is to say that people who notice that the deck is stacked against third parties, they're going to look at that and say well if that's the way it is then that's the way it is. So it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Hans Noel: [00:06:09] As a voter right you might really really like the third or fourth or fifth most likely to succeed party. But you know that's not going to happen. Meanwhile you probably care a little bit about the first and second place parties and so you should choose which one of those you want to push over the over the line. Meanwhile if you're a politician and you want to get elected, you shouldn't join a third or fourth party, you should be one of the main ones because again that's the most likely way of getting into the Congress or winning the presidency or whatever else is up for grabs.

Taylor Quimby: [00:06:36] I actually think that last point is really really important, which is that if you want to be a career politician, as in you want it for a career not just because of ideals, you're not going to run in a third party right because the climb is that much higher.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:53]  And a lot of people think, “Why should I vote for a third party candidate? I'm just throwing away my vote?”

Taylor Quimby: [00:06:54] Exactly. So you might find you might find that there are Republicans who actually really like the Libertarian platform or Democrats who really love the Green party, but choose to be Democrats or Republicans because they think their chances of success are better.

Virginia Prescott: [00:07:06] So if Duverger’s Law finds that a system like ours favors two major political parties at any given time, then why have there been these big shifts you know from Whigs to Republicans for example, over the years?

Taylor Quimby: [00:07:19] Well I think it's worth noting that Duverger’s Law doesn't say that outside parties can't gain enough popularity to displace one of those two dominant parties. It just says that you won't have a political system in which three or more parties share power in Congress in a somewhat equitable way. So you won't have a House of Representatives that's one third Republican one third Democrat and one third say Green Party.

Hans Noel:  The way to succeed isn't to be a viable third party. It's to become one of the two viable two parties, displacing one of the existing ones. What's more likely to happen today isn't that you'd see a switch in the parties but that you'd see a big change in what the parties stand for.

Taylor Quimby: [00:07:56] And I think this point actually gets us to a piece of the puzzle that Duverger’s Law doesn't really address ,which is the sheer inertia of our current political parties as organizations. The longer they hold power the harder it is for a new party to topple them. Which is why we've had Republicans and Democrats as those two dominant parties for a very long time now. You know there are literally more states than there used to be when we were holding elections in 1700 and thereabouts. It takes a lot of money and organization to simply get on the ballot. Never mind building enough support to win a candidacy. And the Democrats and Republicans they've just been doing a very long time.

Virginia Prescott:[00:08:34] Well let's talk about getting on the ballot. You just spoke to a man named Lenny Brody. He is on the steering committee of what is called the Justice Party. Now what did your conversations with him tell you about our two party system and how it works?

Taylor Quimby: [00:08:45] Right. So the Justice Party was sort of built around a guy named Rocky Anderson. He's a liberal two term former mayor from Salt Lake City. He was a Democrat but was becoming very unhappy with where the party was in 2011. He's very much against the influence of money in politics and elections, which people lobby that same criticism against Democrats and Republicans. So he calls up a meeting in November of 2011 with some various political organizers. You know people that have been supporting him for a long time he says he wants to run for President under the banner of a new party. Lenny was there and he said only about 10 or 15 people showed up at that initial meeting.

Lenny Brody: [00:09:25] It turned out that the grouping was not very experienced in traditional politics. A lot of people who had been active in the movement and people were not aware of what it took. And we started discussing how we should go about starting the party what we would need. You know public relations people legal people and discovered we needed a fair amount of help.

Taylor Quimby: [00:09:50] Now now keep in mind that Lenny and all the other people that showed up here, you know, they're not paid employees yet. They've got no funding, they're an entirely volunteer-run organization and all of a sudden they're looking at the logistics of this and it's like trying to start a corporation from the ground up.

Lenny Brody: [00:10:08] Every state had different requirements. And it really was a matter of going to the secretary of state in your state and finding out what the requirements were. There are states like Colorado and Louisiana where you can skip the signature gathering and just pay some money and get on the ballot. And then there's states like California where you need tens of thousands of signatures to get on the ballot. And so it really was you know a process of investigation.

Taylor Quimby: [00:10:37] Yeah. So you can see how between the time, the money, the effort, and sort of needing to get public support, what an uphill climb this is.

Virginia Prescott: [00:10:46] So a lot of hoops to jump through. What ended up happening to Rocky?

Taylor Quimby: [00:10:50] Rocky lost in 2012. Although he did wind up in a debate against Jill Stein, Gary Johnston, and Virgil Goode of the Constitution Party. So I think they did do a good job getting some brand building there. But in 2016 the Justice Party actually chose not to put a presidential candidate forward and instead they endorsed Bernie Sanders.

Virginia Prescott:  Who was technically an independent as a senator.

Taylor Quimby:  But he ran as a Democrat which I think actually again speaks so much to what Hans is talking about, which is that basically they put their hat behind a Democrat because they saw that this Democrat had the power potentially to change the Democratic Party rather than to put forth a third party candidate that they saw maybe had less chance of making as much of an impact as we saw Bernie Sanders making in the last election.

Virginia Prescott: [00:11:44] So how about funding for third parties? You've got Democrats and Republican candidates can technically get some federal assistance in running their campaigns. Is there public money available to third party?

Taylor Quimby: [00:11:54] There is. But I think that you will find that in this case the policies definitely don't help the third parties. So after the bags of campaign cash days in the 1970s Congress passed a law that basically set up a fund so that primary contenders and presidential candidates who meet a certain threshold of popularity are eligible for public funds for their campaigns. In order for third parties to qualify they have to get 5 percent of the vote in a general election before they can get funding. So often this is the sort of thing we're talking about several campaigns before you could potentially reach this point. And that's a staggering amount of support before money is becoming available. Five percent of the vote is something like 15 million Americans and even our biggest third parties at the moment, the Greens and the libertarians, have not been able to hit that mark thus far.

Virginia Prescott: [00:12:44] So have any third parties betting about the hit that mark an end?

Taylor Quimby: [00:12:48] You know recent history well the last third party candidate to win more than five percent of the vote was Ross Perot. He secured a little over 8 percent in 1996. His third party was called the Reform Party. And in 2000 because of that 8 percent they did qualify for the public funding but they didn't do well in the election. Regardless I think they had less than 1 percent in 2000. They sort of also struggled I think from the fact that Ross Perot was the figurehead of that 1996 election. And in the years afterwards they suffered from sort of an identity crisis as a party. You had Pat Buchanan becoming the nominee in 2000. Later Ralph Nader was their candidate in 2004 and surprisingly Donald Trump almost ran under the Reform Party in 2000. He set up an exploratory committee.

Virginia Prescott: Wow.

Taylor Quimby: So I guess it goes to show you that, you know, we're looking at a party that didn't quite know what it was but they know that they didn't like the Democratic Republican two-party system. On the whole a lot of people will just tell you that public election funding, whether you're talking about third parties or in general, is broken. Third parties are too small to qualify. But even the major Democratic and Republican candidates tend to reject that funding because there are spending caps that go with it, and they can raise way more money if they choose to reject the money.

Virginia Prescott: [00:14:08] We did we learn that her episode about the FEC. Let's look at examples around the world - what other countries have two party system?

Taylor Quimby: [00:14:16] Well there are a few that have systems like ours. Jamaica has a two party system. They have the Jamaica Labour Party and the People's National Party. There aren't a ton that maybe are quite like the US. What I've found is that there's many countries that have a system in which third parties do have a little more representation and some seats in the legislature. But ultimately you'll find that still two parties dominate. Now the UK, the British Parliament is an example where I think a lot of people in the US look and say, well look they have a lot of third parties that are running, third party elections seem more vibrant. It just seems like a better opportunity if you've got an outside party. But they've got 650 members of parliament. The Conservative Party has the majority of 315. The Labor Party has 259 all of the third parties together add up to about 74 seats and the Scottish National Party got the most at 35. So I think if you look at it ultimately you see it's still a very majoritarian system in which two parties dominate.

Virginia Prescott: What are some other alternatives then?

Taylor Quimby: Well the real alternative is what's called a multi-party system which is a system in which yes it is somewhat equitable between lots of different third parties.  Or I guess it wouldn't be called third parties. I mean they're just they're just third, fourth, fifth...

Virginia Prescott: So they share power?

Taylor Quimby: [00:15:41]  Yes they come together and they form a coalition government. A true example of this would be the Israeli legislature called the Knesset. So voters in Israel when they go to the polls they don't see any actual candidates on that ballot. What they'll see are just the names of the parties they're not voting for specific people they're just voting for a party.

Virginia Prescott: [00:15:52] Oh so it's not personality at all.

Taylor Quimby: [00:15:54] No, no, no. So in our case if we had the same system it would just say Republican Party, Democratic Party, Green Party, Libertarian, and you would check off the box next to the party that you wanted to vote for.

Virginia Prescott: Just one?

Taylor Quimby: Just one. And if you look at the makeup of the Knesset you'll find that there are something like 18 or more parties and not one of them really has many many more members than any other. And so it is a very true multi-party system.

Virginia Prescott: [00:16:19] So the ones with the most members however, did they elect the prime minister or the president?

Taylor Quimby: [00:16:24] Well you still end up seeing what you would call the majority and minority government, which is to say that all of the separate parties that share a common set of goals band together to become the majority government, and the ones that are opposed to that set of goals band together to become the minority government. And so in some ways you end up seeing something quite similar after the fact.

Virginia Prescott: [00:16:49] You spoke with a number of people that we didn't hear from today and I'm wondering if there was any feeling about whether one system is better than the other for truly representative governments?

Taylor Quimby: [00:17:00] Well I think if you talk to Lenny, he would say that a multi-party system is going to be more democratic, and he's looking at the current two party system in the U.S. and he sees that there are some real problems with the way things work out. You know it's frustrating to head to the polls see two candidates and maybe feel like neither of them reflect your political views. Feels like a big compromise.

Virginia Prescott: Or as often people say it's the lesser of two evils. You know if they don't like either and they're like, “oh I like this one more or less.”

Taylor Quimby: [00:17:29] Right. Right right. But it's exactly. But people aren't happy with the choice they're making it sort of under duress. I think that Hans Noel would say differently. I think he would say that both the multiparty system and the two party system they both have compromises. They're just a different set of compromises and they maybe take place at different times in the process.

Hans Noel: In a two party system the governing coalition who are all the different players who get to be in government is determined before the election, in the crafting of the candidates and the nature of the parties. And then you as a voter get to choose between one of two possible coalitions. In a multi-party system the governing coalition is going to be chosen later, at the parliamentary stage. And you as a voter get to say how much one piece of that coalition how much weight that one piece gets in the final system. But you have no control over who they might negotiate with. You might have some idea but you won't have any control. And when they formally put that coalition together it might not be one that you like but I think the real key here is that the end of the day politics leads us to have to make one decision. You have only one leader you can only have one policy.

Virginia Prescott: [00:18:41] So how then do people change the system?

Taylor Quimby: [00:18:44] Well I think that if there were people that wanted to change the way we have a two party system the only way to do that is to change how we vote which is... I don't know. Seems like a pretty tough challenge as well.

Virginia Prescott: [00:18:58] You mean rather than putting a third party candidate forward change the way that we vote?

Taylor Quimby: [00:19:03] Yeah I mean putting a third party candidate forward if you have somebody that's really dynamic and you have a platform that's really dynamic and you have a moment in time where I think people are very sick of the democratic and republican institutions. There is an opportunity to shake things up. But as Hans pointed out you're more likely to shift the Democrats or Republicans because they look at that election and say, “Oh my goodness we need to we need to change our platform,” or we need to change our leadership. You actually saw…

Virginia Prescott: The Tea Party strategy or the Bernie strategy?

Taylor Quimby: If you look at Bernie you know after the primaries he actually got a seat at the table as to who is literally running the Democratic National Convention and by extension influencing one of the most public events in which the Democratic Party is putting forth its platform and sort of messaging its brand to the general public. So I mean I do think there is opportunity for change. But I think it's pretty unlikely that you're going to see the names Democrats and Republicans go anywhere.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

The Surgeon General

On today's episode: Who is the Surgeon General and what powers do they have? When a public health crisis strikes, what can the Surgeon General do? What influence did Surgeons General have on issues like smoking and HIV/AIDS? We sit down with Fitzhugh Mullan, professor of Health Policy and Management at George Washington University.

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TRANSCRIPT

Civics 101

Episode 90: The Surgeon General

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:23] I'm Virginia Prescott and this is Civics 101, the podcast refresher course on the basics of how our democracy works. You've probably heard the name surgeon general, maybe seen it on the scary warning labels on cigarette packs or liquor bottles. But who exactly is the person behind the stickers and what kind of power do they have? Well we're finding out today with Fitzhugh Mullan. He's author of Plagues and Politics: the Story of the United States Public Health Service.

[00:00:50] Thank you so much for joining us.

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:00:51] My pleasure.

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:52] So first of all who is the surgeon general and what do they do?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:00:56] Surgeon General is the head of the U.S. Public Health Service. That is the uniform wearing part of Health and Human Services. Part of the federal agency that protects our health as Americans. There are about 6000 commissioned officers who are commissioned in the U.S. Public Health Service. And the surgeon general is the senior officer appointed by the president to head up that corps and play really a more important role as a spokesperson about health for the country.

Virginia Prescott: [00:01:28] So the surgeon general is actually a general.

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:01:33] Surgeon general in fact has always been a physician who is distinguished in their role as a public health leader and expert and carries the rank of general officer equivalent to a general in the army or an admiral in the Navy.

Virginia Prescott: [00:01:50] Let's get a sense of what kind of powers the surgeon general has. Do they influence policy or legislation?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:01:56] The surgeon general in today's arrangement actually comes to office with very little power, high visibility, and high levels of respect at least if you asked the population about the person. The reason they have not a great deal of power is that they have neither a large budget nor a large role in the bureaucracy of managing the government or public health as an individual.

[00:02:23] The individuals in the public health services 6000 commissioned officers all of them are health professionals and play important roles in agencies like the NIH and the CDC and the FDA. But the surgeon general him or herself is typically in charge of them but he doesn't run their programs day to day.

[00:02:45] However the surgeon general by dint of being a leading health professional or leading public health advocate by dint of being appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate by dint of wearing this historic uniform that is highly noticeable and has had many people wear it with great respect of the country really has a pulpit a bully pulpit as it were for talking about the nation's health and what we as a country and we as individuals can do to lead healthier lives and create a healthier society.

Virginia Prescott: [00:03:20] So do they have the ear of the president?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:03:24] They do depending upon the particular arrangement. The most famous earlier surgeon general was a man named Thomas Parran and this was in the 1930s. He was the public health commissioner in the state of New York when the governor was a man named Franklin Roosevelt. And when Franklin Roosevelt became president Dr. Parran came to Washington as his surgeon general.

[00:03:49] In that case he was close to and many of the things he was able to do were facilitated by the president. In other cases and generally today the surgeon general is not a close confidant of the president but certainly is within the presidential scheme of appointments an important appointment because presidents want people who are highly credible highly respected both within the profession and with the public as a whole.

Virginia Prescott: [00:04:18] I can't hear Parran's name without acknowledging that he was in charge of the Public Health Service during the Tuskegee experiments. Now this was a decades long study of syphilis conducted unknowingly on African-American men in Alabama under Parran's watch, right?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:04:34] The Tuskegee syphilis experiment took place before during and after Parran's tenure. But yes that was certainly a problem situation for the public health service and for the country for medical ethics. And the surgeon general in charge certainly bears some responsibility. I don't want to dismiss that at all. On the other hand Parran did many things were very important.

Virginia Prescott: [00:05:00] Let's talk about another famous surgeon general. One who may be one of the reasons that we know about the surgeon general we see the labels on cigarette packages and advertisements for cigarettes that say Surgeon General's warning which started with Luther Terry. Now what did he do?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:05:16] Luther Terry was surgeon general in the 1960s. He was a chest surgeon himself a physician himself. And he was actually in office at the time that the research all came together to prove beyond doubt that tobacco was associated smoking in particular tobacco in general with a number of diseases most importantly lung cancer.

[00:05:40] It was not his research and it was not even particularly research done at that moment. There had been earlier reports implicating the same connection. But Dr. Terry assembled a group of notable scientists and public health experts who reviewed all the data and declared definitively that there was no doubt tobacco was causative in lung cancer and a variety of other diseases. And for that he's given great credit. It is from that point on that the anti-smoking campaign has been a particular resident factor on the surgeon general's desk when he or she comes to office and every surgeon general since that time has remained quite vocal and quite active in the tobacco control efforts of us as a country.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:30] Let's talk about another public health crisis that the surgeon general engaged with, the HIV/AIDS crisis. Tell us about C. Everett Koop.

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:06:40] So C. Everett Koop was a pediatric surgeon of great note. He was an early pioneer in the field of pediatric surgery. He was appointed by President Reagan in 1980 as surgeon general with no public health background to speak of the public health establishment in general was arrayed against him. Feeling this was a person who did not have qualifications and experience. And he withstood a nine month confirmation period that he described as the worst in his life. While his name and reputation was hit around batted around Washington eventually he was confirmed.

[00:07:18] And he sat quietly for a few years in the middle of what was then the developing AIDS crisis in 1985. He was asked by the president to write a report on AIDS. And he took that charge very seriously ran hard with it and produced the first surgeon general's report on AIDS which was a document noted for its comprehensiveness, its explicitness and its humanism in terms of embracing everybody who had AIDS removing or laboring to remove the stigma that was associated then and afterward with HIV and AIDS.

[00:07:59] Koop set a high standard as a physician as a healer and asked the country to come with him effectively. He was saluted for it. He became enormously well respected and liked. He traveled the country thereafter really campaigning on protection against AIDS. Supporting early research to learn more about what the virus was and became. Some said the second most well-known face in Washington after President Reagan himself.

Virginia Prescott: [00:08:32] It did help in being so recognizable that he had a very distinctive Abraham Lincoln like beard didn't he?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:08:41] Yeah he had an Ahab like quality, Lincoln like quality.

[00:08:46] He was a religious man although he didn't practice that as a surgeon general but he definitely had a sort of biblical sense about him which didn't hurt in his political campaigning.

Virginia Prescott: [00:09:07] How did the public health service get its start?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:09:10] In the developing republic called the United States in the mid 19th century, there was in fact a Marine Hospital Service. This was by act of Congress a service that took care of sailors in port cities who arrived and were sick. And as was the habit in the days were essentially dumped in the port cities. At that point most medical care was custodial it was home care and if you didn't happen to live in the city nobody was going to care for you and you were a problem for the city. So port cities arranged through the federal government to set up a service that would provide care for sailors, Marine employees in coastal cities.

[00:09:55] In the 1970s it was decided this needed much more organization and it was established as the Marine Hospital Service of the U.S. government and the first commanding officer who was a civil war soldier had been a civil war medical officer put his physicians in uniform gave them merit appointments as opposed to patronage appointments and moved them around from city to city so they didn't become stuck in one place but had loyalty to the service.

[00:10:26] It worked very well, in 1888 that was written into law as a Marine Hospital Service eventually the public health service of the U.S. government and as public health and the United States grew that service began to take on more and more activities. Early research that today is the NIH, Disease Control that today is the Centers for Disease Control, the quality and safety of drugs today's Food and Drug Administration, the Indian Health Service, the health services and resources administration. These are all key agencies of HHS Health and Human Services at the national federal level the public health service was at the center of that growth and development that historic growth in development over the 19th and 20th centuries.

Virginia Prescott: [00:11:14] Now the public health service is very busy though not always in the spotlight. So what are some of the main threats that the public health service is fighting right now?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:11:25] Well there's one important reality of public health work. The better you do the work the less you will be known for it. In other words people in public health are in the business of preventing things from happening. So that the the most successful work in public health results in non events you don't have an epidemic, you don't have bad water. You don't have dirty air. You don't have people dying or suffering.

[00:11:54] So it's a part of professional life and certainly the health professions that is undramatic when it's successful.

[00:12:03] So the issues we have before us today there is clearly a whole set of problems around access to care and equity and access. Last century the 20th century Americans entered that century dying at roughly 45 years of age. We left the century with Americans living about 75 years we put almost 30 years on the lifespan of the American population. On the other hand that was not equal. Some populations live longer some shorter, between ethnic groups between rural and urban between insured and uninsured, so hugely unequal as even amidst our success.

[00:12:42] So developing a fairer health system where everybody gets equal benefit or at least good benefit from it. Very important challenge we're struggling with that as a country. And then plenty of challenges from antibiotic resistance to the opportunities of new technologies of artificial intelligence in medicine and health. That isn't going to make great differences in the future but we must keep in mind equity isn't just about leaping ahead to have the best moonshots in healthcare. We need a good solid platform that all Americans can benefit from.

Virginia Prescott: [00:13:17] You're talking about systemic problems and there are challenges in infrastructure, take the drinking water in Flint Michigan. But you know a lot of public health is about policy about infrastructure but it's also about behavior like smoking like addiction like unprotected sex. What role does a surgeon general have in those kind of behavioral challenges?

Fitzhugh Mullan: [00:13:41] The surgeon general has an extraordinary opportunity. It is a pulpit where you get to climb the steps into the pulpit, frequently the surgeon general's reports, there are conferences convened by the surgeon general and there are multiple platforms on which he or she can speak and write for an individual job it probably has about as much potential leverage over health and health thinking as any job you can imagine. Certainly than any other in the United States and surgeons general have been good about using that and it becomes a challenge for anyone coming to that office to be very strategic.

[00:14:19] This goes beyond the policy obviously you need the support of the administration and particularly the president in terms of the directions you want to go. But once you know that you're within those bounds your abilities and particularly with the range of media that we have available to us today the way to enter the consciousness of the American person in terms of their health are manifold and that is the old surgeon general in both traditional ways like articles and speeches as well as social media, podcast, what have you, which surgeons general are using these days increasingly.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Post-Presidency

On this week's show: The President of the United States is considered one of the most powerful people in the world. So what happens after the Commander-in-Chief becomes a civilian again? How does a former president shape his legacy after he leaves office? To find out, we asked Mark Updegrove, historian and author of Second Acts: Presidential Lives and Legacies After the White House.

Post-Presidency with Virginia Prescott

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TRANSCRIPT

Civics 101

Episode 89: Post-Presidency

This transcript was generated using an automated transcription service, and may contain typographical errors.  

CPB: [00:00:00] Civics 101 is supported in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

OPEN: [00:00:04] Who is the current speaker of the house? I don't even know. Will they rule in the President's favor or will they send it to the Supreme Court? You can't refer to a senator directly by their name. Congressional redistricting. Separation of powers. Executive orders. The National Security Council. Civics -- Civics -- Civics 101.

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:19] I'm Virginia Prescott and this is Civics 101. The podcast refresher course on the basics of American democracy. Today's question comes from listener Rick. What roles have presidents historically played when they leave the White House? What does the post-presidency look like for most presidents. Well, to find out we're talking with Mark Updegrove. He's historian and author of Second Acts: Presidential Lives and Legacies After the White House.

[00:00:47] Mark welcome.

Mark Updegrove: [00:00:48] Thanks Virginia.

Virginia Prescott: [00:00:49] Glad to have you with us. Is there a typical post-presidency?

Mark Updegrove: [00:00:54] No one's post presidency is as different as the individual who wages it. And just as there are different agendas that presidents take up once they assume the position of president there are very different agendas when they leave office and the scopes of their post presidencies vary. And I think in many ways the post presidency of a president is as revealing as anything in his lifetime; of his character; of the way he wants his legacy to be reflected. So it's --- it varies from individual to individual.

Virginia Prescott: [00:01:28] Well let's go back to our country's first president George Washington who lived only two years after leaving office. What did he do with the time he had left?

Mark Updegrove: [00:01:37] Well he sets the standard for his predecessors. One thing he does is leave the office of the presidency. If there's anybody who could have made the presidency a monarchy it was George Washington. He set the standard for the presidency. And in only serving two terms and leaving office he set the standard for his successors as well. There was sort of this tacit understanding that you leave office after two terms and Washington emulated in so doing Cincinnatus the Roman general who warded off barbarians who had stormed Ancient Rome, and instead of leading the life of a hero and a political leader subsequent to that went back to his farm and laid down his sword and picked up his plow. And, figuratively, Washington did the same thing leaving the office going back to Mount Vernon and not getting in the way of his successor John Adams.

Virginia Prescott: [00:02:37] So a pretty quiet post presidency.

Mark Updegrove: [00:02:40] A relatively quiet bucolic post presidency for George Washington.

Virginia Prescott: [00:02:44] Today it's difficult to imagine running for president if you are not independently wealthy. How about back in the day? What did former commanders in chief do for money after leaving office?

Mark Updegrove: [00:02:57] Very often they struggled. And Harry Truman was extraordinarily different than presidents today. He left office in 1953 went back to his home relatively modest as it was in Independence Missouri actually it wasn't his home at all but rather that of his in-laws where he and Bess had lived before he became senator from Missouri in 1935 and led the life more or less that he had he had left before going to Washington to embark on his political career but struggled for money. There were no emoluments or there was no pension there was no there were no privileges for former presidents. At that time and if not for the sale of family farm land, Truman would likely have been broke. So there was an act put together, a law that allowed for a relatively modest pension for former presidents along with various privileges including office space and franking privileges and other emoluments.

Virginia Prescott: [00:03:55] How much is that presidential pension?

Mark Updegrove: [00:03:57] It was a couple of hundred thousand dollars I believe it was comparable to the salaries of CEOs at that time. Now CEO salaries have increased disproportionately since then but it was it was enough so that a former president wouldn't be embarrassed in his post presidency at least financially have any former presidents become much wealthier after leaving the office. Well now they can for sure because they can go on the lecture circuit and command you know handsome six figure salaries for being behind a lectern for less than an hour. But also you have presidential memoirs which command a whopping seven even eight figure fees as well. So it's extremely lucrative to be a former president today.

Virginia Prescott: [00:04:45] Have any presidents declined those kind of offers thinking that they may not be ethical.

Mark Updegrove: [00:04:51] Ethical not so much but not in keeping with the dignity of the office. Yes, I think that Richard Nixon for instance who was very keen on rehabilitating his image after being the first president to resign from office in 1974 refused honoraria when he went on the lecture circuit and actually judged folks like his successor Gerald Ford who did. There's a mixed view of how former presidents should behave. However it's become far more accepted for a former president to cash in on the presidency. Now relative to earlier years.

Virginia Prescott: [00:05:29] How about Secret Service? Now presidents are protected by Secret Service for themselves and the rest of their family. Is it for the rest of their life?

Mark Updegrove: [00:05:37] That has changed now. And Secret Service was not provided for former presidents until after the assassination of John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson who was president at that time had to talk Bess Truman into accepting the fact that there would be Secret Service agents outside of the gates of the Truman home in Independence Missouri. She didn't want the intrusion. She didn't want people trampling on her lawn. So things have changed security wise as well.

Virginia Prescott: [00:06:08] Have other presidents refused protection after leaving office?

Mark Updegrove: [00:06:11] Richard Nixon did. Funnily enough he wanted to save taxpayer money. I think Nixon was very intent on changing his image and could say truthfully that he was saving significant taxpayer dollars by relinquishing his Secret Service detail. He did that 10 or so years after leaving the White House in the mid 1980s was Nixon eligible for a pension having resigned from the presidency. He was he got all of the benefits that any former president would have gotten. I don't know if that would have been different had he not been pardoned by by Gerald Ford. But in some ways the rehabilitation of Richard Nixon is a remarkable story because he was a guy who became the first president as I mentioned earlier to resign the office which he did in nineteen 74 Among the revelations that came up in the Watergate scandal. He went into a period of exile in his home at San Clemente and in Southern California and then four years afterward was very intent on pursuing the area that had most interested him as president. That was foreign policy and he sort of appointed himself a freelance secretary of state traveled the world re-establishes his relationships with leaders and he became a very valuable adviser to Ronald Reagan to George H.W. Bush and improbably to Bill Clinton who took great comfort in talking to Richard Nixon in his first year or so in office before Richard Nixon died in the spring of 1994.

Virginia Prescott: [00:07:56] So Nixon was trying to redeem himself after his presidency. What are some of the other motivations of former presidents, what they want to do in the world as far as you can tell?

Mark Updegrove: [00:08:06] Well some of it is legacy rehabilitation or at least enhancement. I think many presidents continue to pursue the agendas that they took up in office. But I think some of it is the knowledge that they can use their post presidency to do good in the world. I think Jimmy Carter is a great example of that Jimmy Carter left office after being defeated at the hands of Ronald Reagan for re-election and he entered into what he described as an altogether unwanted life and he had no idea what he was going to do next. And then he decided there was this great revelation that he had late one night about a year after he left office and he decided to make his presidential library into a center where conflict resolution could be addressed something he had done very successfully at Camp David and brokering a peace agreement between the Egyptians and Israelis an agreement that stands today and then that that idea grew into well what if we pursued peace and human rights and democracy around the world and eventually that idea germinated into the Carter Center which is a very successful nonprofit organization that the Carters continue to steward today and they pursue philanthropic interests that again I think will enhance Carter's legacy in the eyes of history but also it's in keeping with Carter's Christian ethic to do good in the world and he has used his platform as a former presidency to do just that.

Virginia Prescott: [00:09:40] You mentioned the Carter Center which is different than a presidential library. But when did libraries devoted to records and papers start for presidents?

Mark Updegrove: [00:09:48] It started in the Franklin Roosevelt administration and the idea was relatively modest remarkably before we established Presidential Library and by the way there are presidential libraries for every president from Herbert Hoover forward Herbert Hoover was living at the time of Franklin Roosevelt's administration. So it allowed for a presidential library for Herbert Hoover as well. But there was no repository for the records of presidents after they left office so those records sadly were scattered to the winds some some were put in attics of family members some were sold to souvenir hunters. I mean the equivalent of eBay at the time and these presidential libraries give us a place to put the presidential records where they were processed and available to historians like me to go in and examine for themselves what happened during the course of a particular administration a presidential library something a building dedicated to the memory of a presidency or the record of a presidency.

Virginia Prescott: [00:10:54] I'm wondering about what gets revealed there. What kind of legacy a president tends to shape for themselves?

Mark Updegrove: [00:11:01] After leaving office for the public the foundations in place at these presidential libraries have varying degrees of influence. I was the director of the LBJ Presidential Library for eight years and we'll go back to be the president and CEO of the LBJ Foundation. But I can tell you that I was given great leeway as director to do whatever I wanted relating to the president's legacy. I was given a great deal of autonomy. Some foundations are are far more heavy handed in terms of how the legacy of their president is depicted.

Virginia Prescott: [00:11:38] Well the office is considered the most powerful one in the world. Do presidents have a difficult time transitioning from that office to being a regular civilian?

Mark Updegrove: [00:11:51] Oh I think so. And I think it depends on the circumstances under which you leave office. It was I think extraordinarily difficult for Jimmy Carter and George H.W. Bush. I've spoken to both of them about their transitions after leaving the White House. But but they didn't get reelected to a second term. So as I mentioned Carter said he was this was an unwonted life. You didn't expect to be back as a private citizen just four years after taking office George H.W. Bush felt the same way he really believed that he would defeat Bill Clinton and Ross Perot and the election of 1992. George W. Bush told me that when his father left office there was not so much a depression but a deflation. His father really didn't know what he would do with the rest of his life and felt like he had left the office without finishing his agenda. But his post presidency changed dramatically when his sons Jeb and George W. entered of their own volition. The political ring first as governors of their dates and then of course with George W. Bush improbably assuming the office of president just eight years after his father had left.

Virginia Prescott: [00:13:02] So I wonder if it's easier to be a partisan after you leave office, that you have to -- what do we say in politics, you run from the fringe, you govern from the center. How about after leaving politics? Do we expect our former presidents to tell a more nonpartisan line?

Mark Updegrove: [00:13:21] I think we do. You know obviously when they go to their parties conventions every four years as most do we expect them to toe the party line to a large extent and to support the standard bearer of the party. But I think to a large extent we expect our presidents to be above partisan politics after they leave office. They can serve us better by not getting into bitter partisan disputes.

Virginia Prescott: [00:13:46] How about you who have studied them, looking back over the presidents whose lives after the presidency you looked at. Who do you think did it well?

Mark Updegrove: [00:13:54] There are a number of successful former presidents. I think John Quincy Adams who was the first really successful former president. He became the second one term president his father had been the first second president John Adams and John Quincy like his father went back to Quincy Massachusetts and expected a life in political exile. But he was elected to Congress by constituents in his in his part of Massachusetts and went back to Washington until he died in 1849 and became a a very important voice for the abolition movement in Congress. So he was the first really productive former president. There have been many since Theodore Roosevelt. In some ways changes the paradigm by leaving office then coming back and running for the presidency again as a Bullmoose candidate challenging his successor William Howard Taft. And the Democratic candidate Woodrow Wilson for the office in the modern post presidency I think it would be hard to beat Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter really changes the unofficial office if you will of former president by pursuing a very activist and very successful post presidency.

Virginia Prescott: [00:15:07] Mark Updegrove, thank you so much for speaking with us.

Mark Updegrove: [00:15:10] Virginia thanks for having me.

Mark Updegrove: [00:15:11] Mark Updegrove. He's historian and author of Second Acts: Presidential Lives and Legacies After the White House. That's it for Civics 101 today. This episode was produced by Hannah McCarthy with help from Taylor Quimby. And if you're looking for some post-podcast, sign up for our Extra Credit newsletter. It is a fun and information-rich look at the topics that we cover and includes a quiz so you can test your civics knowledge. You can sign up at Civics 101 podcast dot org. I'm Virginia Prescott and this is Civics 101 a production of New Hampshire Public Radio.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Department of Homeland Security

On this week's show: What does the Department of Homeland Security do? How has it evolved in the past decade and a half? Can it keep up with the changing nature of terrorism? Our guide today is Ron Nixon, the New York Times homeland security correspondent. 

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

The National Anthem

On this week's episode: Who composed our national anthem? Why do we play it so often? And what's the significance of protesting during the anthem? Our guest is Marc Leepson, author of Flag: An American Biography.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Camp David

Every president since Franklin Delano Roosevelt has spent time at Camp David. But why was the presidential retreat built in the first place, and what happens there? To find out, we spoke to Retired Rear Admiral Michael Giorgione, former commanding officer of Camp David and author of Inside Camp David: The Private World of the Presidential Retreat.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Lobbying [Rebroadcast]

When discussing the political power of special interest groups, you can't help but talk about lobbying.  But what does a lobbyist actually do?  We know they hand over checks (lots of them) but how do they spend the rest of their time? What separates legal lobbying from bribery? And how is the food at all those Washington D.C. fundraising breakfasts anyway? Jimmy Williams, former lobbyist and current host of Decode D.C. spills the beans. 

This is a rebroadcast of an episode that originally aired in July of 2017. 

Lobbying with Virginia Prescott

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

FEMA

The Federal Emergency Management Agency was established in order to plan and respond to nuclear war. And these days, they're tasked with showing up after all sorts of disasters strike. But what kind of resources does FEMA have to respond to storms, earthquakes, fires and floods? And where is the organization when we feel we need them most... in the hours and days after disaster strikes? Our guest today is Garrett Graff, a journalist and historian who wrote The Secret History of FEMA for Wired Magazine. 

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

What do alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives all have in common? They fall under the umbrella of a single federal bureau - commonly referred to as the ATF.  On this episode, what led to the creation of the ATF?  What kind of power do ATF agents have? What exactly is a legal explosive?  Our guest is Katie Tinto, assistant professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Law. 

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

U.S. Allies

On today's episode: What does it mean to be an ally of the United States, who decides which countries we should be allies with, and how do our alliances influence the role of the United States around the world? To clear up these questions, we spoke with Melissa Waters, a law professor at Washington University in St. Louis. 

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

HUD

In the 1960’s there was a growing awareness of urban plight and poverty, which was generally referred to as the "Urban Crisis" - the economic abandonment of large U.S. cities.  As part of President Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" push came a cabinet department designed in part to stabilize housing and urban areas: the Department of Housing and Urban Development, or HUD. How has HUD evolved since those early days? What programs is the department responsible for? And what's its future today? Guiding us through the young history of HUD is Alec MacGillis, politics and government reporter with ProPublica. 

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

The National Archives

In this episode: The National Archives and Records Administration is the forever home of the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution,  but what else do they keep in their vaults? Can just anybody do research at the Archives? And what role does NARA play in the national election?  To find out, we spoke to Jessie Kratz, the historian at the National Archives.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

The U.S. Flag Code

In this episode: What is the U.S. Flag Code? Who created it, and why? Is it enforceable? When did the American flag start getting used in advertising? What's the difference between the U.S. Flag Code and "flag protection laws?” Has the flag always been a symbol of patriotism? Our guest is Marc Leepson, author of Flag: An American Biography. 

The U.S. Flag Code with Virginia Prescott

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Congressional Committees

In a given week, Congress might vote on everything from international diplomacy to wildlife conservation to internet regulation. How do individual members of Congress become experts on each of these subjects? The answer is: they don't. Instead, Congress divides its work load among committees. This week, how does the committee system work, which committees wield the most influence, and how do members of Congress jockey for committee seats? We speak with Garrison Nelson, a professor of political science at the University of Vermont. 

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

U.S. Postal Service

One of the founding institutions of America's government is also one of the most overlooked and surprising ones: the Postal Service. What role did it play in shaping the early, disparate colonies into a unified nation? How has it survived the digital age? And what's its future going forward? Our guest is Winifred Gallagher, writer and author of How the Post Office Created America.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

IRL 1: Free Speech in Schools

This is the first in a series called Civics 101 IRL; special episodes where we explore the historic moments connected to our regular podcast topics.  Today we're digging into four incredibly important Supreme Court cases - four cases that have shaped how we interpret the meaning of free speech in public schools.  Is political protest allowed in class?  Is lewd speech covered by the First Amendment? Can school administrators determine what students can and can't say in the school newspaper? Listen in, and find out how students and schools have gone head to head over how First Amendment rights apply in a public school setting.

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Transcript:

Nick Capodice: [00:00:00] This is Civics 101, I'm Nick Capodice. If you've listened to a few episodes of our show you know that we don't have a lot of time. We try to keep these things down to about 15 minutes so they're digestible. And we can't really get into the moments of historical significance that are relevant to our episode topics like landmark Supreme Court cases actual presidential elections all that fun stuff. And that's what we're going to do today. We're calling it Civics 101 IRL. It's the real historical moments relative to our episode topics. So hope you have fun. Stick around. Last week I got this phone call from Dave Alcox

David Alcox: [00:00:58] Hey Nick this is Dave Alcox of Milford high school

Nick Capodice: [00:01:00] Mr. Alcox is a superstar social studies teacher here in New Hampshire, and a professional deejay.

David Alcox: [00:01:07] I've got a wicked great news for you. We're going to have John and Mary Beth Tinker from Tinker vs Des Moines, and Cathy Kuhlmeier from Hazelwood versus Kuhlmeier come visit us at Milford High on November 2nd...

Nick Capodice: [00:01:18]  And I didn't want to sound like a complete fool when he called me. But the truth is I didn't know who these people were, and when I found out I had to tell someone. So I grabbed producer Hannah McCarthy.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:01:30] Yeah!

Nick Capodice: [00:01:31] Come in

Hannah McCarthy: [00:01:31] Ok

Nick Capodice: [00:01:32] Do you have like five minutes?

Hannah McCarthy: [00:01:33] I do yeah I have five minutes

Nick Capodice: [00:01:34] Yeah, put on those headphones

Nick Capodice: [00:01:35] Do you know who John Tinker, Mary Beth Tinker, and Cathy Kuhlmeier are?

Hannah McCarthy: [00:01:41] I have no idea

Nick Capodice: [00:01:44] Ok, these, it’s ok because I didn’t either, but I can promise you I will go to my grave knowing the names Tinker, Fraser, Kuhlmeier and Frederick

Hannah McCarthy: [00:01:53] You gotta tell me who they are then

Nick Capodice: [00:01:54] These are four people involved in Supreme Court cases that drastically, drastically change First Amendment rights in schools

Hannah McCarthy: [00:02:03] I can’t believe I haven’t heard of this

Nick Capodice: [00:02:05] I’m pretty shocked I haven’t heard about it either.

Nick Capodice: [00:02:06] Number one, Tinker versus Des Moines.

Archival Audio: [00:02:11] ohn F Tinker and Mary Beth Tinker, minors, etc. et al vs Des Moines independent community school district et al.

Nick Capodice: [00:02:20] The Tinkers name being first means that they are the petitioners. And Des Moines being second means they are the respondent.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:02:27] OK so that means that Des Moines is happy.

Nick Capodice: [00:02:30] Yes the original decision they don't want anything else to happen.

Nick Capodice: [00:02:33] Right. The Tinkers lost the previous case and Des Moines won the previous case. They're cool to stand. Mary Beth tinker, great story, Mary Beth Tinker was 13. Her brother John was about 16 I believe when this happened. Their father was a Methodist minister and he was very involved in the civil rights movement. And John and Mary Beth joined some students who were protesting the Vietnam War the Vietnam War and the United States. It's the first time that war is coming to American living rooms.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:03:03] Right through television.

Nick Capodice: [00:03:04] Yes absolutely. The horrors of war. And they were going to protest by joining some students who were wearing black armbands.

Archival Audio: [00:03:12] Specifically the views were that they mourn the dead on both sides, civilian and military in that war and they supported the proposal which would have been made by United States Senator Robert Kennedy. The truce which had been proposed for that war over the Christmas period made it open ended or an indefinite truce.

Nick Capodice: [00:03:31] Totally coincidentally two days before this big protest of wearing black armbands the principal of their school met with a bunch of other principals in Des Moines and passed a rule saying arm bands are forbidden in our school district.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:03:46] So were other kids wearing armbands?

Nick Capodice: [00:03:49] Yeah this was going to, when they heard that the principal heard that this was going to be a thing that happened. They're like look what are we going to do. Kids are going to be wearing armbands in school and it's going to be a disruption.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:03:59] OK so he tried to preempt the whole thing.

Nick Capodice: [00:04:00] Tried to preempt the whole thing but they wore them to school anyways and they were suspended. And immediately after they were suspended they started getting the threats. So yes. People called them a bunch of commies. Someone said they were going to firebomb their house. And one letter one letter that actually Marybeth still has to this day is like you're welcome to wear your armbands just do it on Saturday. You shouldn't be doing it in school. So they got in contact with the ACLU. They got a case together and through appeals it ends up in the Supreme Court and the vote is seven to two in favor of the Tinkers.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:04:39] That is a landslide. Go John and Mary Beth.

Nick Capodice: [00:04:41] John and Mary Beth. The seven justices wrote in the decision that yes their first amendment rights have been violated and they had a right to protest in school. The justice who wrote the decision is Abe Fortas. So when you have a Supreme Court case there's a decision where the majority writes the majority of it and then you can dissent. If you're someone who disagreed you can write in the dissent and Abe Fortas wrote the decision. He said "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." Those words are used over and over in other Supreme Court cases further down the line. It's a magnificent decision and it creates this massive blanket precedent called the Tinker Standard which is where you ask was this speech disruptive. And if it's not disruptive then it's protected in schools. John and Mary Beth Tinker case 1969. And to this day John and Mary Beth do what's called the Tinker tour. They travel the country to tell students about their First Amendment rights.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:05:47] That is very cool.

Nick Capodice: [00:05:49] Mary Beth once said, one of my favorite quotes I found of hers, it's a good way of life to speak up. To use your rights. And she says that students are particularly in a position to speak up because students have virility, students are curious, students are the next generation who are is who is going to challenge the way the previous generation had everything all set up. So later on as the years go by the Supreme Court has to decide, are there things besides disruption quote unquote that makes something protected or not in school. So we're going to shift forward in time to 1986 were there.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:06:24] You should play some music.

Nick Capodice: [00:06:26] Oh I'm going to totally play 1986 music for this. It's going to be Cruel Summer.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:06:30] Yeah.

Archival Audio: [00:06:32] It does not say one should not swear in Latin class, the rule says that obscene or profane language is disruptive.

Nick Capodice: [00:06:41] 1986 Bethel v Fraizer.

Archival Audio: [00:06:46] The Facts of this case are that on April 26 1983 Matt Fraser, a 17 year old high school senior, gave a speech to the Associated Student Body.

Nick Capodice: [00:06:57] Gave speech nominating his friend Jeff for student body vice president. It was not full of cuss words.

Archival Audio: [00:07:03] He gave a crude and vulgar speech.

Nick Capodice: [00:07:06] It was very lewd and it was it was short but it was just goofy and it was all lewd and I think I'm not going, I'm not going to say it. So if you want to read it you can just go listen to it.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:07:18] We can't stop you.

Nick Capodice: [00:07:20] We can't stop you from googling it but it to be to be honest Hannah it's like no worse than a lousy Saturday Night Live monologue.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:07:27] Okay.

Nick Capodice: [00:07:29] Yeah except it's way too short. So it's yeah it's not long enough to be about SNL skit but it's just it's just full of sexual innuendo that's all it is. So then he was sent home for that. He went to court. He went to the 9th Circuit 9th Circuit Court of Appeals which ruled in his favor saying that double entendres were protected speech in schools and then the Bethel district brought it up and got up to the highest court in the land. The Supreme Court. Bethel comes first. Bethel v. Fraser because the Bethel school district is the petitioner in the case.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:08:02]  I'm a little surprised. In the 80s. That this, that a school would even bother to say no it's our right to send you home when you exhibit lewd behavior.

Nick Capodice: [00:08:15] Because it's about 1960s when Tinker happened, this is a time the height of protest, it's the 60s you know America is learning how to protest in a new way. By the 1980s this is kind of been accepted. You know kids have freedom of speech in schools. Kids are expressing themselves but can it be lewd. It was another 7 - 2 vote. And the answer is no. You cannot say lewd speech in school and it is not protected in school.

Archival Audio: [00:08:44] The Ninth Circuit we believe has misconstrued the extent of the rights a student has under the First Amendment in a public school setting.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:08:53] I was wondering because I know in middle school at least while I was still in school in Massachusetts in a public school system if a kid wore a T-shirt with a lewd slogan or image on it they had to turn it inside out or go home.

Nick Capodice: [00:09:06] Yep same happened to my school particularly in the 1980s something called the coed naked T-shirts which were really hot in 1989 1990. And because they were lewd the school could tell you to turn them inside out or if they had swear words. So they didn't have to just say swear words. But even if they were lewd it couldn't happen in school. One of the quotes from the decision was "the first amendment does not protect speech in school that is vulgar or inconsistent with the fundamental values of public school education." And it kind of makes sense to me even though I'm you know I'm not a crotchety old man but you know you're you can't just go around saying lewd stuff in school.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:09:46] Right. Yeah yeah yeah. The Queen Mab speech is very filthy.

Nick Capodice: [00:09:51] So in the case the dissent and as I've said before the dissent is always kind of my favorite part of Supreme Court cases because it's like the minority coming out being like I still stand for bippity bop. Justice Stevens John Paul Stevens wrote the dissent and he said he just quoted he said "Frankly my dear I don't give a damn. When I was a high school student the use of those words in a public forum shocked the nation. And today Clark Gable's four letter expletive is less offensive than it was then." So he says that what is considered dirty or unprotected as it were in school can change over the years. Yes so let's let it be so let it be kind of like let it be kind of alive.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:10:36] For those of you listening who don't know what that's referencing that's Rhett Butler.

Nick Capodice: [00:10:40] Oh yeah.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:10:41] From uh, um, God,

Nick Capodice: [00:10:43] Gone with the Wind.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:10:44] Yeah.

Nick Capodice: [00:10:45] Two more and they're going to be fast. So that was in 1986 we're going to go forward in time to another case and this is Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier. now so the Tinker case was cited in the Fraser case and tinker and Fraser are cited and Hazel would be Kuhlmeier. And that's what I love is like Supreme Court decisions are living. They build a top each other. Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier decided in 1988. Kathy Kuhlmeier, she worked at a school newspaper called the Spectrum.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:11:18] Alright.

Nick Capodice: [00:11:19] What a fun name this was! What a ROYGBIV name! The Spectrum. And what they did when they wrote the Spectrum newspaper is they gave the proofs of what the paper is gonna be to the principal. He looked it over and said great job kids and printed it. Principal Reynolds got the proofs. It was a May issue. And there were two stories that the principal didn't really care for. One was about teen pregnancy and the other was about divorce. So what he did was he didn't tell anybody he just removed those articles and published the newspaper. Cathy Kuhlmeier and company got their paper the Spectrum opened it up and saw these two big articles were missing and they said what what's up with that. And the principal said that's you know and he gave his reasons for it goes up to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Archival Audio: [00:12:09]  Mr. Chief Justice and may it please the court. This case comes before the court to resolve the issue of whether a school sponsored high school newspaper produced and published by a journalism class is a part of the school adopted curriculum under a teacher's supervision and subject to a principal's review. It is a public forum for the purpose of the First Amendment.

Nick Capodice: [00:12:29] Can schools decide what you can and can't put in a school newspaper? So Hazelwood School District v. Kathy Kuhlmeyer. Kuhlmeier got the help of the American Civil Liberties Union. She sued. She won. Then the Hazelwood district appealed it to and went up to the Supreme Court. This vote was 5 3. It's closer than the others and the victor the Hazelwood school district. Schools do have the right to alter to say what you can and can't put in a school newspaper and this was Justice White who delivered the majority decision and he said "the question we addressed and Tinker is different from the question whether the First Amendment requires a school to promote particular student's speech. The former question addresses educators ability to silence a student's personal expression. That happens to occur on school grounds but the latter question concerns educators' authority over school sponsored publications." So this case goes on to say if it's in a newspaper if it's in a school play if it's in a thing the school does, the school has the right to decide what can and can't be done. So you could do a rude play and the school could say we're not going to put that play up and your first amendment rights are not violated. What do you think of that one?

Hannah McCarthy: [00:13:54] I remember being very upset when my school...well in retrospect I get it. We were going to do the King and I and I prepared my audition song and everything from the King and I and and they decided no it's racist we're not doing it. It is racist. They shouldn't have been doing it. But at the moment I just thought like bunch of soft-handed ninnies, like is not is not a good reaction but I don't understand it. I understand that there is an implicit like as though the school is agreeing with whatever is being put in this material because the school's name is on it.

Nick Capodice: [00:14:28] Yeah it's an interesting case and I think because it extends to all sorts of things musical performances, plays I think of all of the possibilities this decision could change and it still stands. I mean Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier stands.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:14:42] Yeah. Especially, well not especially. There's always there's always some tumult in the country. But right now I think you've got a lot of young people who feel very passionately about certain political and racial tensions. And if they want to write a piece about it and you know perhaps cite use of a racial slur or something and they want to print that and talk about that word for example and why that word is wrong and they're going to print it because it's important that you read it as it is something like this you know and the school says we're not publishing that because that's a racial slur.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:15:19] Or maybe not even quite that we're just not even going to really give you a reason beyond use of racial slur. And we're just not printing your piece. I think it couldn't leave room for let's say a hyper conservative principle to just push back on anything that offended his or her ideals.

Nick Capodice: [00:15:36] Yeah. Well I think you might be in the same bailiwick as, this is one of my favorite dissents ever written, Justice William Brennan, "the young men and women of Hazelwood east high expected a civics lesson, but not the one the court teaches them today such unthinking contempt for individual rights is intolerable from any state official. It's particularly insidious from a school principal to whom the public can trust the task of inoculating in its youth an appreciation for the cherished democratic liberties that our Constitution guarantees." You, listener. Go read the whole case. It's a fascinating dissent. It's a lot of fun full of passion.

Nick Capodice: [00:16:18] One extra point that I want to make that Cathy Kuhlmeier made about defending her article staying in the newspaper was that there was so much teen pregnancy at her school that they had their own daycare.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:16:29]  Wow. I have never heard of that.

Nick Capodice: [00:16:31] Yes. You're not allowed to write about teen pregnancy but enough students are having sex and having underage children that you have a daycare at your high school.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:16:40] That takes it to a completely different level.

Nick Capodice: [00:16:43] And now we're up to our last one.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:16:45] All right.

Nick Capodice: [00:16:46] And it's never the last one because gosh there's going to be is probably one being argued right now and it's it's 2007 Morse v.. Frederick.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:16:54] We're going to go all the way up. Juneau what I'm talking about we're going to Juneau Alaska.

Archival Audio: [00:17:01] ...everyone has been waiting for. And here are the first two torchbearers to enter the stadium Dorothy Hamill.

Nick Capodice: [00:17:06] This is during the torch relay for the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City Utah. It's so fun. A schoolhouse Supreme Court case that involves the Olympics and our neighbor to the north.

Archival Audio: [00:17:20] Respondent Joseph Frederick Sr. was late to school that day when he arrived. He joined his friends across the street from the school to watch the event as the torchbearers and camera crews passed by. Frederick and his friends unfurled a 14 foot banner bearing the phrase quote "bong hits for Jesus" endquote.

Nick Capodice: [00:17:40] Bong Hits for Jesus. And the four was the number four and it was all capital letters except for the 'i" in hits. BONG HiTS 4 JESUS. So Frederick hung up the bong hits banner and principal Morse, Deborah Morse she took the banner down and Frederick was suspended. How would you rule on this one?

Hannah McCarthy: [00:18:07] It may fall under the lewd category because it will not lewd but generally inappropriate because it's saying drugs.

Nick Capodice: [00:18:19] You have these nine old Supreme Court justices men and women talking about bong hits for Jesus. And one of them kept being like, "it was a cryptic message. Such cryptic. What did he mean in Bong Hits for Jesus?"

Hannah McCarthy: [00:18:34] I mean that's what I actually seriously don't understand suppose the school has the following rule. By the way on our field trips you can carry around 15 foot banners they can say anything except they can't talk about drugs and they can't talk about sex and they can't talk about. I don't know. Or I'd say three things. Would that be constitutional. Well I mean I think I think a school could certainly prohibit the display of banners on a school trip or in a school or some...suppose that this particular person had whispered to his next door neighbor bong hits for Jesus. Suppose that's what had happened.

Nick Capodice: [00:19:10] How are they going to vote?

Hannah McCarthy: [00:19:12] I feel a little nervous.

Nick Capodice: [00:19:15] Is the boy and the banner protected, or is the principal in her in her rights thinking of what you know about Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier, thinking of what you know of the Tinker standard and thinking of what you know about Fraser?

Hannah McCarthy: [00:19:29] I think given what I've learned so far from this lesson. Yeah. The principal is protected.

Nick Capodice: [00:19:34] Really.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:19:36] Yeah. Because we've seen two cases where if there is objectionable material the school is in the right to say no.

Nick Capodice: [00:19:44] The court votes five to four, close one, in favor of principal Morse. You got it on the head. And who wrote the decision was the newest chief justice. Justice Roberts.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:19:58] OK.

Nick Capodice: [00:19:58]  It was an early decision of the new of the Roberts, uh, of the Roberts court. He said in his decision he said "Tinker held that student expression may not be suppressed unless school officials reasonably conclude that it's going to disrupt the work of the school. Fraser demonstrates that the constitutional rights of students in public school are not automatically coexisting with the rights of adults in other settings like Fraser. If he had said those rude words outside a school th at would've been fine. But he can't say them in school and then Kuhlmeier acknowledged that schools may regulate some speech even though the government couldn't censor it outside of the school. And finally the concern here is not that Frederick speech was offensive but that it is reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:20:50] So my biggest issue with all of this is that all of these Supreme Court judges are saying you know you've got adult rights and then you've got what happens to kids in the school in the public school system.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:21:03]  And so it's it's basically saying that they aren't, children do not have the same rights as adults. In this certain.

Nick Capodice: [00:21:11] in this public school setting.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:21:13] Right. So why is it that the public school is this hallowed ground where students are stripped of something.

Nick Capodice: [00:21:20]  Well do you think that students should have the right to say whatever they want whenever they want in school?

Hannah McCarthy: [00:21:27]  No.

Nick Capodice: [00:21:28] Well let's talk about disruption first of all OK. Can somebody stand up and start screaming in class and disrupt your lessons.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:21:35] People do it.

Nick Capodice: [00:21:36] They do it but should they be allowed to do it?

Hannah McCarthy: [00:21:38] Well they're punished right.

Nick Capodice: [00:21:40] So should they not be punished.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:21:43]  No I think they should be punished. I guess the idea is that the learning environment we're trying to teach our youth how to be responsible how to earn those rights as adults. I can yeah I can see that. I can understand that. I was also always a good kid. So it's easy for me to just imagine not to say that these are bad kids who are dissenting. Yeah but I only ever saw that it's entertaining and I never came up against sitting in the principal's office for having started an expletive.

Nick Capodice: [00:22:13]  I mean I don't think it's, I'm a dyed in the wool champion of freedom of speech. I always have been. You know but all these cases like both sides make sense to me. You know something in them makes sense to me. So I can understand the court's difficulty in making these decisions. And in the dissent for Morse v Frederick it's Justice John Paul Stevens again, and his dissent by the end of it gets around to the point of basically this whole thing we've been talking about. He starts with this he says "although this case began with his silly nonsensical banner it ends up with the court inventing out of whole cloth a special First Amendment rule permitting the censorship of any student speech that mentions drugs." And then he says "the Vietnam war is remembered today as an unpopular war. But during the Tinker era during its early stages the dominant opinion that Justice Harlan mentioned in his Tinker dissent regarded opposition to that war as unpatriotic if not treason." So look where we are now. Who knows if feelings about drugs cannot change.

Hannah McCarthy: [00:23:22] We know that they can change we're seeing the marijuana laws change across the country.

Nick Capodice: [00:23:26] Absolutely. So I really like that in his dissent for for this case as he references Tinker and he says guys don't forget you know the Vietnam War. You would be just screamed at for opposing the Vietnam War. You'd get in trouble. People would get into fights with you at bars. I really like that he comes back to Tinker and he comes back in a way that's supportive of this. The Constitution is interpreted and those interpretations change over the years. These four students Tinker Fraser Kuhlmeier, Frederick. Four kids changed the ways our First Amendment rights are interpreted in schools.

Nick Capodice: [00:24:04]  Well Mr. Alcox, if you're listening I'm ready now. Send me your Tinkers and your Kuhlmeiers. This episode was produced by me Nick Capodice and Hannah McCarthy. Music is by the inimitable Peetie Wheetstraw, 1937. And Matt Oakley. The dulcet tones of Supreme Court justices past and present come from oyez.org, it's a free Law Project from Cornell's Legal Information Institute. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Native American Reservations

On this episode:  What is a Native American reservation? What is a pueblo? What does it mean to be a sovereign nation? What is the relationship between reservations and the federal government? Can reservations pass laws that run up against state or federal statutes? How are, and were, reservations created? What does the Bureau of Indian Affairs actually do? Our guest is Maurice Crandall, assistant professor of Native American Studies at Dartmouth, and a citizen of the Yavapai-Apache Nation of Camp Verde.

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Made possible in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.