It happened once and never again.
In 1906, the Supreme Court stayed a man's execution. That same day, his town murdered him. Then SCOTUS held it's first and only criminal trial for those who had allowed it to happen. This is the story of a wrongful conviction that was only the beginning of an injustice and the students who learned that story in June of 2024. It's also the story of what happens when you realize your government is closer than you think.
Learn more about the Supreme Court Historical Society’s Hometown Program.
Transcript
Hannah McCarthy: Hey, Nick.
Nick Capodice: Hey, Hannah.
Hannah McCarthy: Right off the bat here. I need to let you not You Nick. But the person who is listening to this right now know that I sometimes struggle to find hope. Hope about understanding this nation, participating in this nation, accessing this nation. I'm always looking for it, and I know it's there somewhere, but I don't always see it.
Nick Capodice: Even though that's what we do on a daily basis like try to understand, try to participate, try to access, it.
Hannah McCarthy: Might be because that's what we do on a daily basis, right? Like all day, every day, trying to wrap our hearts and minds around this country. And even when I do grasp it myself. I am always wondering, do other people? Does that mean something to them? Does that help them, strengthen them? Or does America feel out of reach?
Nick Capodice: I am with you there, Hannah. I do understand that because the more I learn about this country and its systems, the more secure I feel, honestly. Or maybe the more I feel I have some say in what goes on here. There's something to that whole knowledge is power thing. And you do wonder, Hannah, do other people feel the same way? Do they care?
Hannah McCarthy: So when something shakes those cobwebs off of my trembling heart and reminds me how many people out there really care and really do try to understand and help others to understand too, because that is one of the points of being alive in the United States. It's it's just really something. Nick. And today I want you to meet some of the people who are clearing off those cobwebs.
Judge Curtis Collier: I'm Curtis Collier. I'm one of the district judges here in the Eastern District of Tennessee.
Alicia Jackson: Well, my name is Alicia Jackson, and I'm a professor at Covenant College, Lookout Mountain, Georgia.
Mychael Fennessey: My name is Michael Fennessey. I'm a junior at the University of Tennessee, Chattanooga. I'm a history major and an Africana studies minor.
Michelle Deardorff: I'm Michel D. Deardorff, the Adolph S Ochs Professor of government at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga.
Bella Craig: Hi, I'm Bella Craig. I was a student mentor in the Chattanooga Hometown program, and I'm a current student at UTC.
Taylor Nelson: My name is Taylor Nelson. I am a senior political science major with a focus in public law.
Chief Judge Travis McDonough: My name is Travis McDonough, and most people call me judge McDonough, so that'll be fun.
Myles Farr: I am Myles Farr. I am from the city of Chattanooga in Tennessee. I am currently senior in high school.
Mackenzie Gula: My name is Mackenzie Gula. I am a senior at Chattanooga Christian School, 17 years old, and I had the incredible opportunity of participating with Supreme Court in my hometowns this summer.
Nick Capodice: Wow. Okay.
Hannah McCarthy: I know lots of new voices. Don't worry if you didn't catch all that. Everyone is here to tell us the same story in one way or another.
Nick Capodice: Wait to that last person. Mackenzie. Did she say in my hometowns this summer? Like hometowns? Plural?
Hannah McCarthy: Yep. And that is what we are talking about. That and a lot more. This is Civics 101. I'm Hannah McCarthy here with Nick Capodice. And for two weeks in June of 2024, in a program called hometowns, this group learned and taught the story of Ed Johnson. Chattanooga, Tennessee. The federal judiciary and why we need to know what happened here.
Judge Curtis Collier: In the summer, we had a just fantastic program. We brought in 20 kids. We gave kids a chance to see and work on a real interesting case that developed here in the Eastern District of Tennessee.
Hannah McCarthy: This is Judge Curtis Collier.
Judge Curtis Collier: A little bit over a hundred years ago, in that case, wound up in the United States Supreme Court. They were not only present, they were on top of it. In fact, at the end of the day, they would not leave at the end of the two weeks. I think they stayed around for another 30 minutes, an hour or so, talking and sharing their perspective and experience and asking questions.
Hannah McCarthy: So 10th, 11th and 12th graders apply for this program. If they're selected, they learn about a case that made its way from their hometown to the Supreme Court. The program started in 2023, in Saint Louis, Missouri, with Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier.
Nick Capodice: Hazelwood v Kuhlmeier. I know that one. It's student speech in schools. We have a whole episode about that case.
Hannah McCarthy: We do. I knew you would be excited. There are lots more hometowns planned for the future. By the way, this whole thing is created by the Supreme Court Historical Society and will be putting a link to that on our website and in the show notes. But for today, it's Chattanooga and it's us V Shipp.
Nick Capodice: Us V Shippp.
Hannah McCarthy: You've never heard of it.
Nick Capodice: I haven't, I'm sorry.
Hannah McCarthy: You are not alone.
Judge Curtis Collier: This case is is a little out of the ordinary because it had been forgotten here at Chattanooga. People did not talk about it. It was not in anyone's real memory. A few people knew something happened, but the whole story was hard to hard together. I got interested in it almost as a happenstance. I was doing some research on one of the black lawyers who became involved in the case And after research, I discovered he was involved in a Supreme Court decision. And for a black man back then being born, Supreme Court decision was surprising. So I located the Supreme Court decision and his name was mentioned there. And then this case came up. But I never, ever heard of it. Now, a few years after that, a book was written by a newspaper reporter and a local lawyer here, and they told the story in more detail. And since then, we've learned a lot more about the case, and also a lot more about the triggers involved. This case is not really discussed that much in law schools, and law students will say, I should have been taught this.
Bella Craig: Judge Collier knows so much and he's been in Chattanooga so long.
Hannah McCarthy: Bela Craig, a college student and mentor in the hometowns program.
Bella Craig: He is like sort of the unofficial historian of this case.
Bella Craig: And it was so amazing just to get his legal expertise and his, like, historical expertise. It was incredible being able to walk around my hometown and like, view it in this completely different light. I mean, so many areas I visit so frequently. I had heard about the Ed Johnson case before, just because it's so important to Chattanooga, and there was a memorial recently built to honor Ed Johnson at the end of Walnut Street Bridge.
Mackenzie Gula: I did not know about the case, and I had walked on the Walnut Street Walking Bridge many times without understanding the significance of it and what had occurred there.
Hannah McCarthy: Mackenzie Gula, High School senior.
Mackenzie Gula: I think there are a lot of aspects of this case that brought to light to me, a lot of important connections that maybe necessarily aren't applying the case to modern day circumstances, but rather parts that we looked at that hit very deeply. One of those was we would take field trips to certain historic sites that were involved in the case, such as the nematode Taylor, where she got off her bus stop. What was really interesting for me was the street that she got off at her bus at was right across from my school.
Bella Craig: It was like amazing and a little bit Chilling. I mean, the details of the case are very tragic. So, you know, it was it was upsetting in a lot of ways. But of course, like the Supreme Court Historical Society, their staff and also my professors and the local judges, like they were all super accommodating, like about mental health and things like that. There were regular check ins, which is great, especially since this was with high schoolers.
Hannah McCarthy: A reminder again, that we are going to be talking about instances of sexual and racist violence. So for those listeners who wish to opt out, this would be the time.
Mackenzie Gula: And then right down the road from my school is the cemetery that she lived in and where she was raped outside of, and then head further down that street you have where Ed Johnson lived. Everything felt very close, and I hadn't realized that.
Bella Craig: We visited the cemetery that Nevada Taylor's family kept. Um, her father was in charge of tending the cemetery there. I visited that area before, and I visited even that cemetery. I'd passed it before, but we were standing in the middle of the cemetery where Sheriff Shippp is buried, and there are others involved with the case who are also buried there. And also it was the site she was walking home when she was assaulted, when she was raped. And so we were standing so close to the area where that happened. We were standing in the middle of the graveyard and I'm I'm an atheist, but it's like I felt a lot of just sorrow and just knowing what, what took place there. And, um, luckily my professor was there and she checked on me. She was like, are we doing okay? I was like, not currently, but I will be okay. Um, yeah. And just and it wasn't just the assault, it was everything that happened after and everything that led to the lynching of that Johnson. That really hit me.
Mackenzie Gula: One of the places we went and looked at was an African American graveyard from 1906. And stepping out of the bus and looking across the street, it was just a slip of land that was very poorly taken care of, and had we not been told what it was, we wouldn't know what it was. There was a lot of stones, not ornamentally, placed at all plants, overgrown branches on the ground and right along the line of where this graveyard ended, there were brand new built homes that were just very extravagant. And so that was heartbreaking because looking at the cemetery, you have no idea what it is. And the people living in the homes right next to it may not even know what it is themselves. And so that was heartbreaking to look at. It caused me to definitely take a step back. And in Chattanooga, there's a lot of preservation of historical places. There's a lot going on. That's definitely stuff to be grateful for. A lot of Civil War sites or the Ed Johnson Memorial by the bridge, but there's also a lot of history that's going unnoticed and that's fading.
Hannah McCarthy: So this is the case or the case that started the case.
Mackenzie Gula: So the case itself was about Nevada Taylor. She was a young girl who was raped on her way home, and she had blacked out when a man came up behind her and put a belt around her neck. And later on, the doctor came to her home and confirmed she had been raped. And the sheriff got involved. However, she could not see it was dark. It was late at night. She did not know the man who attacked her. And the sheriff kept insisting on her giving a racial profile for the man. And she was like, I don't know. It was late at night. It was dark. Maybe if I had to guess, it was an African American man. And the sheriff took that and ran with it and posted a reward to whoever could identify him. And of course, as soon as you post a reward, someone's going to come in and say something. And Eddie Johnson was unfortunately that name that was brought up. So that kind of sealed his fate right there.
Michelle Deardorff: The young woman is attacked and raped as she's walking home from work and she doesn't know who does it. He's behind her. It's dark.
Hannah McCarthy: Michelle Deardorff, government professor at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga.
Michelle Deardorff: And there's this sense that they have to find someone who's done it and who did it. And for reasons that aren't entirely clear, they land on Ed Johnson. The story doesn't make sense. It's not clear how he could be the one who did it, because he was observed being at this local bar.
Mackenzie Gula: And then the sheriff definitely worked towards the downfall of Ed Johnson. They needed to.
Michelle Deardorff: Find someone who did this to put the fears to rest. And as it's reconstructed now from the evidence, it becomes pretty clear that they found a witness who was willing to lie. There was no one white who recognized him as being where his alibi says he was. All the people who could say he was there were African American. And so it goes to court. And when it goes to court, they're under pressure to solve this quickly because they don't want mob rule. And the fear is if someone's not convicted by the law quickly, the mob will take over. And they don't want that in this new progressive, healthy, happy town of Chattanooga. And so they're going to push it through and they're going to push a conviction through.
Mackenzie Gula: There were juror members. Their names were posted in the public paper. So obviously that's going to cause them to feel fearful about if what are people going to think if I say he's not guilty? Obviously that puts pressure on the jurors as well as the jurors. There was one who threatened Ed Johnson's life in the middle of a trial, and that juror was not excused. So there's a lot of injustice happening with the trial itself. Ultimately, a Johnson is found guilty. And following that, pardons and styles step in as attorneys to represent Ed Johnson and appeal the case. Eventually, a stay of execution is granted by the Supreme Court, so there's some hope there.
Hannah McCarthy: All right. We're going to step in here for a moment. I am mostly leaving this story up to the people who know it best. But when we began, I told you that this was a story about Ed Johnson and a story about a Supreme Court case called us v Shipp. There is so much going on here, so I do want to check in to make sure that you don't miss it. Ed Johnson, a young black man in his mid-twenties, was wrongfully convicted of the rape of Nevada Taylor in 1906, and he was sentenced to execution.
Michelle Deardorff: Two white attorneys were appointed to represent him, but they were under tremendous pressure not to family pressure, personal pressure, community pressure. They even tried to explain and write an editorial in the paper as to why they do this, because that's what law requires, that they didn't want to take this case, but they were assigned it and they would do their job. Um, but they really don't do their job. And so he goes to court and he's alone. He's the only they shut down the court. So the only people who are there are lawyers, judges, lots and lots of police officers. And at Johnson, decisions made pretty quickly. He's found guilty. Almost immediately.
Hannah McCarthy: His hite court appointed lawyers opted not to appeal his case. So two black lawyers in Chattanooga, Noah Parden and Styles Hutchins, stepped in to petition the federal court system.
Nick Capodice: Petition it how?
Hannah McCarthy: Though they petitioned for a writ of habeas corpus, which literally means that you have the body, but super. Basically, it means asking the court to review the imprisonment or detainment of a person and decide if it's legal. In this case, pardon and Hutchins claimed that Ed Johnson's trial deprived him of his constitutional rights.
Nick Capodice: So these two lawyers said essentially that Ed Johnson was not properly convicted and his imprisonment and I assume his death sentence was wrong.
Hannah McCarthy: But the appeals court said, sorry, federal courts do not intervene in state criminal proceedings.
Nick Capodice: Wait, is that true?
Hannah McCarthy: Oh, we're gonna get there. So this is 1906, Nick. There's still a lot of stuff to happen in the federal judiciary. Also, by the way, these two black lawyers had initially declined to take Ed Johnson's case, and for good reason. They feared for their careers and their lives if they intervened. So stepping in at this stage was a huge risk, and they did it anyway. So a federal district judge says, sorry, we don't do that. But he also says, but hey, why don't you ask the governor to delay the execution so that you can appeal my decision?
Nick Capodice: In the world of law is such an interesting place, Hannah. No, you can't have this. But hey, why don't you ask someone else to think about it?
Hannah McCarthy: So Parden And Hutchins do that. They ask the governor to delay the execution pending appeal. And the governor says, okay, fine, ten days and pardon is like, I can work with that. I'm going to use this delay to talk to the circuit judge for Tennessee. Do you know who that was, Nick?
Nick Capodice: You know, I do not know. Hannah.
Hannah McCarthy: It was Justice John Marshall Harlan of the United States Supreme Court.
Nick Capodice: I do know him. I know Justice Harlan. He's the lone dissenter in Plessy v Ferguson. So if he was on the Supreme Court when this happened, that means that this is from the riding circuit days, right? When justices would travel the country to hold court in different states. Right.
Hannah McCarthy: That's exactly right. So pardon goes to Washington, DC. And with the help of a black Supreme Court lawyer in D.C., he gets a meeting with Justice Harlan. This is at a time when very few black lawyers had ever appeared before the Supreme Court. Harlan tells Parden, okay. The Supreme Court will hear this appeal. I also grant you a stay of execution.
Nick Capodice: Okay so Harlan is basically saying, actually, the federal courts can intervene in a state criminal proceeding.
Hannah McCarthy: Well, this is one of the questions at hand. And remember, the Supreme Court case is about Shipp. Shipp is the sheriff. It is not called Ed Johnson v the State of Tennessee because this is what happened next. The very same day that Harlan issued a stay on Ed Johnson's execution. I'm going to take us back to McKenzie Gula.
Mackenzie Gula: But then right after that, lynch mob broke into the jail, which definitely was set up to very easily occur because the sheriff had let go of all of the other people working in the jail except for a very, very old security guard and left it very open, very accessible for the lynch mob to get in, find a Johnson. They had him on the second floor alone with another woman. So he was very identifiable. And the lynch mob dragged him out of the jail cell all the way to the Walnut Street walking bridge, where he was lynched. And then he fell out of his rope, and they walked up and shot a gun to his head. So that was the case of Ed Johnson.
Hannah McCarthy: Ed Johnson's final words were, God bless you all. I am innocent. It was 94 years before the state of Tennessee affirmed that he was, in fact, innocent.
Chief Judge Travis McDonough: One of my Early memories of being an associate here in town was actually going to the hearing at which Ed Johnson was was pronounced innocent by a former criminal judge.
Hannah McCarthy: Chief District Judge Travis McDonough.
Chief Judge Travis McDonough: And it's such an impactful story and such a, you know, a sad story and a story that says a lot about our history, that, you know, once you learn about it, you tend not to forget about it.
Nick Capodice: So what did happen in the end? How did the Ed Johnson case become the Shipp case?
Hannah McCarthy: Here's Michelle Deardorff.
Michelle Deardorff: They say you cannot execute this man until we're able to take a careful look at this case. And they execute, you know, the mob comes anyways. There's clear evidence that they were aided and abetted by the sheriff and his men. And then the court has to decide, are they going to actually intervene? And so they bring in investigators, they hold the trial and. Yeah.
Hannah McCarthy: And Mackenzie Gula, again.
Mackenzie Gula: The Supreme Court stepped in, did its first ever and only criminal court trial, and eventually sentence Sheriff Shippp to go to jail.
Nick Capodice: Wait. Hold on. Hannah. The Supreme Court actually held a criminal trial. Is that something that they do? I thought this is something that they did not do.
Hannah McCarthy: They did it. Like Mackenzie says, though, first and only time Shippp and others went to prison, though only briefly. But the Supreme Court didn't fully answer the question of federal intervention in state criminal proceedings.
Michelle Deardorff: This case seems to me, with us versus Shippp, this moment where we could actually reconsider our understanding of the 14th amendment and what it had the capacity to do. But yet it doesn't. Us versus Shippp just sits there. Judge Collier makes a fascinating kind of argument of ways in which he sees this case kind of showing up where the courts decide to implement their own decisions. And he thinks particularly around Brown and these kinds of cases. And then that's possible. But when it comes to criminal law, it just sits there.
Judge Curtis Collier: It took a while to do it.
Hannah McCarthy: Judge Curtis Collier.
Judge Curtis Collier: The Supreme Court took this case to look at that issue. And because they had Johnson was murdered on the Supreme Court, did not answer the question. The question came up again about ten years later in a case out of Marietta, Georgia, involving a Jewish man named Leo Frank, and they addressed the issue. Then they fully addressed the issue, but they decided that Frank's facts did not allow them to render a decision. And then about ten years after that, a case arose not far from my hometown and he Lane, Arkansas, where the dress issue and they said, yes, if a state trial that has the form of a fair trial, but in reality it's not a fair trial. Then the federal courts have a role and the United States Constitution comes into play.
Michelle Deardorff: I mean, I teach con law. I'd never really taught this case because it doesn't get referenced much again. So I do now because we're here, it seems students need to understand that because they live here. But for a system based on precedent, this case being so remarkable seems to have very shallow footprint when it comes to precedent.
Chief Judge Travis McDonough: What is important about it is that it was the Supreme Court acknowledging that the federal courts had a role to play after some terrible things had happened in a state criminal prosecution that augured in decades and decades of federal courts reviewing some of the worst injustices that had happened in state courts. That has evolved. And but at the time that it happened, it was a somewhat unique occurrence, and it opened the eyes of federal court practitioners that this was another way to seek justice for those that had perhaps been denied justice in state criminal litigation.
Hannah McCarthy: We're going to take a quick break. And when we're back, I'm getting to the point, which is hope.
Nick Capodice: You know, I was honestly starting to wonder. But before that break, quick reminder that Hannah and I have a book with a breakdown of many landmark Supreme Court cases and a ton of other stuff. It's called A User's Guide to Democracy How America works. It is fun. It's for everyone. It makes a really good gift. In fact, it just keeps on giving. You can find it wherever books are sold. And we got a link to it right down there in the show notes.
Hannah McCarthy: We're back. We're talking about a case, a place, a program, and the people who were changed by it. By the way, just so you know, if you or someone you know might be interested in this program, the Supreme Court Historical Society's hometowns program, which is free. We will have a link to it in our show notes and on our website. Now, I want to jump back in with someone who can give us a fuller picture of Chattanooga at the beginning of the 20th century.
Alicia Jackson: Well my name is Alicia jackson, and I'm a professor at Covenant College, Lookout Mountain, Georgia, and teach and research extensively on African American history and primarily with a strong interest in reconstruction period, late 19th century, and extending into the early 20th century. My role was primarily to give an overview of African American life before the Civil War. Chattanooga's role in it. And then also talk about what happened during the Civil War. After the war, and also give a sort of a broader context about the reconstruction period. And will it help to define for the students what reconstruction is?
Nick Capodice: We have a whole series on reconstruction that would make a good supplement to this episode, by the way.
Hannah McCarthy: I think it would, especially when we think about the false narrative that has been spun about the black community when it comes to the post reconstruction era. How is it that the justice system so utterly failed a young, innocent black man, years and years of purposeful undermining by his white neighbors?
Alicia Jackson: And so that is what you see happen, is that especially if you think about a place like Chattanooga, where you have black political leadership, black economic development, and in many ways challenging that idea about sort of this complicit black individual who's just going to do whatever the white person wants them to do. Sort of just serve the white community. Um, the magical Negro or sort of that, that mammy kind of caricature. Then there are threats. And so I think that is that is so embedded in the culture, especially during the late 1800s, the reconstruction period. And beyond that, I think the atmosphere was ripe to go after someone like Ed Johnson. So it's not only is it the idea about this economic competition, but also don't, you know, black men have this this proclivity. I mean, you see this in the secession proponents they're talking about, you know, the black men are going to start wanting to marry, um, you know, white women and all that. So there is sort of a really beginning of that. But when they see black individuals having political power, economic power, and challenging the system, that's even more why you're going to see, again, I think, this sort of huge backlash.
Bella Craig: Chattanooga has a lot of racially tense history.
Hannah McCarthy: Bella Craig, again a mentor in the hometowns program.
Bella Craig: The north side of Chattanooga used to be a predominantly black area, and now it's completely flipped on its head. I think keeping in mind, like the history of who used to live in these areas, and not that that isn't taking place, there's a lot of preservation, maybe not enough preservation, in my own opinion. So I think telling.
Alicia Jackson: These stories, having a community around saying, you can make it, I'm here for you, you know, sort of having that embracement and that embracing of that. I think in many ways it's such a detriment, particularly to the black community. But I would say to the broader community as well. Um, but I just think these stories have to be told. And that's part of the what's one of my missions in the work I do is to make sure that these are collected and preserved and shared.
Bella Craig: I feel like preservation is something we should focus on a lot more, just not only just the history of black chattanoogans as like a mass, but like there are specific, so many memorable figures in this story who did so much to, like, aid the pursuit of justice, even if it was flawed, not on their end, but on the system's end. I just, I just really think it's important.
Alicia Jackson: I don't want I don't want people to walk away thinking that people just passively and tacitly accepted what happened, or that the black community has ever done that. Um, there are ways that many people maybe not visible to the broader community where people challenged what was going on. And so, as I mentioned at the beginning, whether it be enslaved individuals getting their freedom. Um, running away to Chattanooga, That's what they did, whether it be black individuals creating their own hospitals because they can't be served at the white hospital training nurses, particularly thinking about Emma Wheeler, you know, training nurses to be able to provide care for the black community, or GW Franklin providing services for the dead because white undertakers wouldn't handle black bodies, but in turn investing in their communities and becoming individuals who are trying to, in many in their ways, challenge what's going on. I think that's, I think, an important story to tell. I don't know what happened to Ed Johnson is horrendous, and I think in no way should be lessened. But to understand that people didn't just accept this, they found ways to challenge what was going on.
Bella Craig: I walk across Walnut Street Bridge like every weekend. It's amazing. It's a beautiful place and two people have died there. There were two men lynched there. Um, it wasn't just a Johnson. There was a man before him. And so, in sake of preservation memory in the form of, like, everyday, you know, acknowledgment I think is huge. But memory also in the form of our city is very proactive civically. We have so much involvement in politics, I feel like and maybe that's just my perception, but there's a lot we can do.
Hannah McCarthy: We're going to take a quick break. When we're back. A much needed reminder, at least for me, of why we're here and what we can do.
Hannah McCarthy: Thank you. We're back. And. Well. THis is what I learned reporting about the hometowns program. So I told you at the beginning of this episode that researching for it and interviewing people for it gave me this sense that people really do care whether they're in charge or not. Judges, teachers, students. And they don't just care. They're actively involved in this country and they want that for others. It's something that became clear pretty much in every conversation that I had about the hometowns program. I went into this thinking I would learn about this thing, and I would share it with you. Pretty straightforward. But I came out of it realizing that it doesn't much help a soul to wonder if anybody is there, if anybody cares. Because they are, and they do, and they are trying to get us to listen.
Myles Farr: That even a city that was considered progressive at the time would still allow such atrocities to occur in both, both inside and outside the courtroom. It did, of course, instill a sense of disappointment, but I still believe that that's important, that, um, I and my colleagues learned about all of that so we could hopefully do better in the future.
Hannah McCarthy: Myles Farr, High School senior.
Alicia Jackson: I can't tell you how many students across the racial spectrum who are like, I can't believe I didn't learn this. I can't believe I didn't learn this. Why didn't I learn this? I know a.
Mychael Fennessey: Lot of them were like very surprised by like, you know, what happens in the case.
Hannah McCarthy: Michael Allen Fennessy, a college student at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga and a mentor in the hometowns program.
Mychael Fennessey: Um, and how what you would think of justice or how our justice system works today was definitely not happening then. So many obvious, like, floors. And so those are things that they couldn't completely wrap their head around because they were like, wait, wait, wait. I've been I've been taught about these values that our country, you know, supports and pushes, but that's not what's happening here. And so I guess it takes a bit to like, understand the complicatedness of it. And like I was saying earlier about how our system just continues to build off of itself. And so it takes really awful cases like these for people to build up and make that change that needs to be changed.
Myles Farr: Well, of course it's easier to look back on things. It always is. It's easier to look back at atrocities without, say, both the raids Feltes across Chattanooga at the actual case of Ed Johnson and the attempted lynchings and such. However, it was also the fact that I believe my colleagues in the program were not the voice of our generation, but were certainly voices of our generation. We in the program both want to make a difference, and some of us even could be making a difference as we speak.
Mychael Fennessey: A lot of people are averse to history. I feel like a lot of times I tell people that I'm a history major. They just talk about how much they hated their history subject or history in school, or they hated their history teacher. Um, which really sucks because I love history, and I really wish other people could see why it's so important. And so with programs like this, you take it outside of that classroom environment that people may not be so prone to like, listen or understand or really get why what they're talking about is so important. Um, and with this, like it was optional and it was a very fun program. It was very engaging. You know, we went and toured the sites that we talked about. Um, and so doing it like this, it makes it feel more real. It makes the history feel more alive. I feel especially like they also were like, engaging with lawyers and judges who could speak on the legal system and why exactly this case should not have happened the way it did. So this way it was. It was a really it was a great way to make it feel real.
Taylor Nelson: And I think it's so important that not everybody knows that, that it wasn't always like this.
Hannah McCarthy: Taylor Nelson, college student mentor in the hometowns program and a legal assistant.
Taylor Nelson: Those rights weren't always there. So the shift in the early 20th century that gave criminal defendants more rights, I didn't even know that they were so little rights for criminal defendants.
Mychael Fennessey: People understand that maybe mistakes were made, or maybe this shouldn't happen again in the future. And so then there's legislation or judicial processes to fix it. And so it's really interesting to think about history like that in terms of like mistakes being fixed.
Myles Farr: I see Chattanooga as both a relatively progressive city, and I believe Chattanooga is doing better, but I it is important to remember, in my opinion, that we were not always like this. We were not always perfect. We still aren't perfect, but it's important to know why we have to do better and why we have to make certain nothing like it ever happens again.
Judge Curtis Collier: Another thing that is important for people to understand is that we don't have robots making up our court system.
Hannah McCarthy: Judge Curtis Collier again.
Judge Curtis Collier: We have human beings. We have men and women who are fallible, and they're prone to make mistakes just like everybody else is prone to make mistakes. The system, though, is designed to second guess them. That's why a court of appeal. That's why we have a Supreme Court. But if you look at the infallibility and perfection of the federal courts, you're looking in the wrong place. Uh, you won't find it there. And sometimes we make mistakes out of, uh, biases, prejudices and animosities. Sometimes we make mistakes for other reasons. And having the ability to go to federal court to have a conviction looked at is very important.
Taylor Nelson: The biggest thing I recommend for people is especially in the judicial system, is go and watch. There's nothing stopping you from going and observing a proceeding. Nobody's going to get mad at you.
Nick Capodice: Can I hop in here with a quick anecdote about this, Hannah?
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah. Go ahead.
Nick Capodice: So this is one of the greatest things that my government teacher taught me in college. One day he said to us, go to the courthouse. Ask for the clerk of courts office. They have a list of cases being heard that day, and you can watch any trial. And I did, I did I watched the trial and I was shocked that I could do it.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah. I mean, the Sixth Amendment says, quote, in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial and You you right here listening are the public.
Taylor Nelson: You're allowed to be there. And I think that experience for the students kind of opened their eyes. You know, this is what happens from what I'm taught in government class. You know, there's so much more to this. And I think also shedding some light on some of the negative aspects of American government, kind of like, you know, the Ed Johnson case be very, very awful handling of that case by the judiciary, um, at least the local judiciary kind of shed some light on, oh, this is the history that gives us the rights that we have today. And I think, you know, schools can tend to, you know, shy away from those darker histories. But I think they're important because, you know, the age old, if we don't study history, we're doomed to repeat it. And I think that's so true. And I think that the students really did come away with a, oh, this really somber thing happened. But it was so important for our institutions and for our furtherance of rights that we have now.
Judge Curtis Collier: The federal courts belong to We the people. We the people own the courts. We the people, either directly or indirectly control the courts. And because you own the courts, you have an obligation to make sure the courts are operating efficiently, effectively and the way you want them to operate. How do you carry out that responsibility? You carry out that responsibility by being more involved. Reach out to your local federal court. Come and visit the federal court. Talk to the judges and educate your family members, your coworkers, and your friends and associates about what the federal courts do and why they're important in our society.
Taylor Nelson: You know, if you don't protect the civil rights and liberties of people who, you know, may or may not have as much knowledge of them, then who's going to be next?
Myles Farr: Essentially, it is our not only duty, but responsibility and rights to make a better society for both ourselves, our neighbors and our descendants. And to anyone who thinks that we can just put it off or that we can't do anything about it, I say that not only do I think you're wrong, but I also feel sad that you think that.
Taylor Nelson: I understand that this thing is negative, and at the same time understand that I have the ability to change it. I think people who kind of live in cynicism really take away from the civic duty that, you know, all American citizens have. We need to.
Myles Farr: Make sure that the changes we want to happen are not only made nationwide and statewide, but even down to the city, neighborhood and even house. In the end, we just need to make sure that within each generation we improve life for the next generation.
Taylor Nelson: And I think that a lot of people always have this idea that, oh, well, it'll never be me until it's you, until it's your brother, until it's your family member, until it's your friend. And then you know you want to help them so bad, but you just don't know. And I think sometimes it does take that situation for people to kind of be aware of, oh, well, now I don't know what to do to help my friend who's in this legal predicament. Well, now I need to educate myself. And I think maybe kind of bringing this awareness towards the concept of it could be you who's wrongfully convicted, it could be anybody. And I'm not trying to, like, be scary or anything, but I think it is important to understand if you don't know your rights, you can't advocate for yourself. And I think advocating for yourself as a citizen is the most important thing you can do. It's the most active thing you can do for yourself.
Nick Capodice: So, Hannah, when you texted me that you were crying as you were going over the interview transcripts, is this kind of what you meant?
Hannah McCarthy: Full disclosure does not always have to disclose every single detail, Nick. But yeah, this is what I meant. There is so much cynicism, there's so much dread, so much misinformation, so much unknown in this nation, especially I feel lately. But when a group of students and educators and judges say, actually, there is a real and true path to understanding and participating in and preserving this democracy, it was an important reminder to me of the myriad good hands that our nation and our rights rest in. So yeah, I guess I'm holding out hope.
Nick Capodice: I'll join you.
Hannah McCarthy: This episode was produced by me. Hannah McCarthy with Nick Capodice. Christina Phillips is our senior producer. Rebecca Lavoie is our executive producer. Music in this episode by Timothy Infinite, V.V. Campos, Adelyn Paik, Twelwe, Particle House, and Chris Zabriskie. You can learn everything you want to know about the Supreme Court Historical Society's Hometown program by going to their website, SupremeCourtHistory.org, or by clicking the link in our show notes. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.