From top secret (the names and locations of intelligence agents) to confidential (the drinking habits of a prime minister) the federal government has a lot of sensitive information. What are the different levels of security clearance, and how does clearance work?
Helping us untangle this web is Juliette Kayyem, professor of international security at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, and national security analyst for CNN. She formerly served as Assistant Secretary for Intergovernmental Affairs at the Department of Homeland Security under President Obama.
Transcript
Nick Capodice: [00:00:00] Hannah, if you had top secret clearance and you could access any classified government information. What would you want to know about?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:00:09] I think I would want to know what the real plan is in the event of nuclear war.
Dr. Strangelove clip: [00:00:15] No point in you getting hysterical at a moment like this.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:00:18] I bet it's a little more grim than we think it is. What about you?
Nick Capodice: [00:00:23] The Mary Celeste.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:00:25] Is it the ghost ship?
Nick Capodice: [00:00:26] When it was discovered no one was on board and there was no sign of a scuffle. It was like the eighteen hundreds, though I don't think that top secret, top secret clearance is going to tell me about the Mary Celeste. I have another question for you, though. How good are you at keeping secrets?
Hannah McCarthy: [00:00:43] I think I'm pretty good. But then at the same time, when I buy someone something fun for their birthday, like I could just tell you right now. I've always prided myself on the idea that I think I would be able to keep any secret if I really had to, if the stakes were high enough and it was like people will get hurt if you share the secret. Yeah, I'm taking it to my grave. Like, what a privilege.
Top Gun clip: [00:01:12] It's classified. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
Nick Capodice: [00:01:16] Well, there's a job, Hannah, that requires that kind of dedication, and I think you just might be the person for it.
Bridesmaids clip: [00:01:21] I work for the government. I have the highest possible security clearance. Don't repeat that. I can't protect you
Nick Capodice: [00:01:28] Because the federal government has a huge amount of sensitive information, from military movements to criminal investigations to scientific and technological developments to information about individuals. Close to three million people have some form of security clearance, which gives them access to that classified information.
The Post clip: [00:01:50] Must be precious cargo. Yeah, it's just government secrets.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:01:57] This is Civics 101. I'm Hannah McCarthy,
Nick Capodice: [00:01:59] And I'm Nick Capodice. Today, we're talking about how the government keeps its secrets and what it takes to get into the classified club.
The Simpsons: [00:02:07] Mr. Simpson, please cover your ears while I say the secret access word. Geez.
Nick Capodice: [00:02:13] Today's guest is Juliette Kayyem, professor of international security at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government and National Security Analyst for CNN. She formerly served as assistant secretary for Intergovernmental Affairs at the Department of Homeland Security under President Obama, and she spoke with her former host, Virginia Prescott, in Twenty Seventeen.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:02:32] Ok, so there's three levels, at least for the federal government. The top level is, of course, top secret. That's information that, if disclosed, would cause exceptionally grave damage, that's the standard.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:02:46] Ok. Hang on. What does she mean by exceptionally grave damage?
Nick Capodice: [00:02:51] Some examples of exceptionally grave damage include armed hostilities against the United States or its allies. The compromise of vital national defense plans. Or complex cryptologic and communications intelligence systems. The revelation of sensitive intelligence operations. And finally, the disclosure of scientific or technological developments vital to national security.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:03:14] But is that... Just boil it down for me?
Nick Capodice: [00:03:16] Basically, top secret information is the most important information, and that classification is used relatively sparingly.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:03:29] So how does the government decide what rises to that very highest level of top secret?
Nick Capodice: [00:03:34] There is a way to distinguish between top secret and everything else.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:03:39] The key difference between the top secret and the other classification levels is that top secret tends to show to the reader, say the president or secretary of defense, what we call sources and methods. How are we getting that information? You know, we have a spy in an ISIS ring in Germany, and he's telling us this. And so gosh, if that were disclosed or made public, You basically someone that person would die.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:04:05] All right. Got it. Top secret is the highest clearance. What are the other two?
Juliette Kayyem: [00:04:09] The next is secret, which is, if disclosed or released, would cause serious damage and then confidential. It just tends to be. These are things that the government needs to know for a variety of reasons, and it could be expected to cause damage.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:04:23] It's so interesting that you've got these qualifications of exceptionally serious, serious and just damage, right? Like someone in the government had to sit down and define that. What does that mean? I wouldn't even know how to define that for my own self. So you've got top secret, that's exceptionally grave damage, right? Secret is serious damage, but what is the difference between exceptionally grave and serious damage?
Nick Capodice: [00:04:49] This is information that is still pretty important, but without those sources and methods. So it could be intel about an ISIS ring in Germany, but it wouldn't include the people who got the information or how they got it.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:05:02] But OK, when it comes to confidential, right? Juliette said it could just cause damage. So is that like, you know, like casual, callous gossip,
Nick Capodice: [00:05:12] You're actually not far off!
Juliette Kayyem: [00:05:14] A good example of that would be maybe a memo from someone in the State Department discussing the, you know, the drinking habits of the prime minister of some country. You just don't want, you know, you don't want that out there.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:05:26] My question is if someone has top secret security clearance. Are they able to know all of the government secrets about anything?
Nick Capodice: [00:05:33] That would be cool, wouldn't it? But it's a little more complicated than that.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:05:37] It's very compartmentalized and rightfully so so that the fact that you have the access does not grant you the right to see all materials that are designated as, say, top secret. In other words, if I have top secret clearance as relates to, say, Homeland Security issues, I can't just email, you know, or call someone in the department security offices and say, I'm really interested in North Korea's nuclear policy. Can I see those top secret materials?
Nick Capodice: [00:06:06] And that's where the phrase "need to know" comes in.
The Rock clip: [00:06:10] You're on a need to know basis. And you don't need to know.
Nick Capodice: [00:06:13] Even if someone has the clearance for certain intelligence, they may not have access to it unless they need that information for a specific purpose. This is important because, as we said earlier, around three million people have some sort of security clearance, and that group isn't just made up of government employees and military personnel.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:06:32] For example, the Department of Defense may ask a team of cyber experts to come in and and give them advice on cybersecurity. So that's why outsiders sometimes have security clearances.
Nick Capodice: [00:06:44] However, the majority of people who have clearance about 70 percent in 2013 were military and government employees like Juliette, who worked for the Department of Homeland Security under President Obama.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:07:02] So I've heard a lot, especially in the past, like six to eight years or so about applying for security clearance, right. And how it can be this long, massive process.
Nick Capodice: [00:07:14] If you've been invited to do work that requires a clearance, you have to undergo an investigation. The government digs into your personal information and your background to determine if you're trustworthy.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:07:26] That sounds stressful. So who is in charge of approving or denying security clearance?
Nick Capodice: [00:07:31] Most agencies and departments of the government, they conduct their own investigations using the same basic procedures and an investigation service provider or ISP. The main ISP is the Office of Personnel and Management, which is an independent agency in the executive branch. And you want to take a guess, Hanna, as to which department has the most security clearances.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:07:55] I'm going to guess the one that's conducting secret, dangerous operations all over the world that they don't want people to know about, a.k.a. the Department of Defense.
Nick Capodice: [00:08:06] Yeah, you got it. The Department of Defense holds over 80 percent of security clearances, and the DOD has its own investigation, service provider called the Defense Investigative Service.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:08:18] When you say investigation, like what does that actually mean?
Nick Capodice: [00:08:21] Well, essentially the government is trying to create a timeline of your life, including all the big moments and all the people in it.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:08:29] So in my case, and in most cases, what you do is you, you know, fill out the famous forms with lots of details about where you've lived, your debt, your marital status, your husband or wife or partners, actions where you've traveled, who you've known, who you've talked to, any questions about drug use about your, you know, support of the United States and its government. It is painful from any from any perspective.
Nick Capodice: [00:08:57] The form she's talking about is called the SF 86. It's got all your identifying information, including your proof of citizenship. By the way, Hannah, only U.S. citizens can get security clearance, though in some circumstances a non-U.S. citizen can receive a limited access authorization.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:09:14] A lifetime in America has taught me that government forms are boring enough as it is, so I can only imagine that this is the epitome of the boring government form.
Nick Capodice: [00:09:26] You also have to provide information about your parents and your siblings, including step parents, half and step siblings, children and in-laws.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:09:37] So if you have any kind of family drama which is every human being on the planet, I can imagine that can get a little tough or awkward.
Nick Capodice: [00:09:45] And then there is a record of your mental and psychological health, your criminal record and a history of drug and alcohol use. And here's one that is super interesting to me your financial record. What I was most shocked to learn is that over half of the people who are denied security clearance are denied because of financial issues like significant debt,
Hannah McCarthy: [00:10:08] Like my student loans might hurt my chances.
Nick Capodice: [00:10:10] Yes, any unpaid bills.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:10:13] I understand that, though, because if you're on the hook for a great deal of money to some other organization, you're kind of a liability.
Nick Capodice: [00:10:21] Yeah, if you owe a large amount of money to someone, to anyone, it's much easier for outside forces to manipulate you, to give you favors to take care of that debt.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:10:32] How long does this whole process take?
Nick Capodice: [00:10:34] Like a lot of things, it depends on the level of urgency and who the person is.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:10:38] Let's use someone like Rex Tillerson a perfect example, probably someone who who may have had security clearances in the past. He's a private citizen. He's got complicated financial dynamics.
News clip : [00:10:49] Rex Tillerson, CEO of oil giant ExxonMobil, now tapped to be Trump's secretary of state, a man with no government experience but decades of dealmaking and international business ties. Those ties include extensive relations with Russia and most notably, Vladimir Putin ties.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:11:09] They can probably get through that one in two to three weeks, but they're putting a lot of resources behind it. For a lot of people like, say, my students who may be coming in as a CIA analyst just, you know, looking at things online and doing analysis for the CIA. It can take anywhere from six to eight months.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:11:26] I want to come back to this fact that over half of the people who don't get security clearance are denied because of debt. But what are some of the other reasons someone might be denied?
Nick Capodice: [00:11:35] Things like personal conduct, like if you're telling fibs on an application or you have a history of conduct issues, another issue is quote foreign influence like you have foreign family members or a financial stake in other countries.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:11:48] I think it's more common that the agents will come back to you and say, we have some questions about this. So my parents, my mother, was born in Lebanon. You know, there's greater concern about people with foreign born relatives, especially a mother or father or a spouse. That seems fair since these are national security issues. And so then they did need me to go back and sort of validate or verify not just her, but her nine brothers and sisters. So we're sort of diving into the depths of your own history
Nick Capodice: [00:12:18] And drug use. For example, marijuana use, though it is legal in many states, is still a red flag for security clearance.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:12:32] All right, once the government has finished combing through your personal life and decided that you are trustworthy enough to get clearance, what happens next? Do you have a special badge? Do you have a card that you keep in your wallet?
Nick Capodice: [00:12:44] All right, we'll get to that, and we're going to talk about how security clearance works in the day to day operations of the government and what it's like to have it right after this.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:12:52] But before the break, this is your weekly reminder that we have a newsletter. It's called Extra Credit. It comes out every two weeks, and I warmly recommend that if you haven't subscribed yet, you take a moment to subscribe right now at civics101podcast.org. Basically, the newsletter is the place where we put all of the stuff that we had to cut from the episode. So if you want to know, for example, about the different classified information that has been leaked or see some pictures of the secure rooms where top secret meetings take place, you can get all that, but only if you are subscribed to extra credit again. Go to Civics101podcast.org to subscribe today, and I swear it's not annoying. It's just a really great newsletter. Welcome back. You're listening to Civics 101 and we are attacking security clearance. Ok, so Nic, let's just say that I just got top secret security clearance, basically my dream. How do I prove that I have that clearance?
Juliette Kayyem: [00:14:12] You don't walk around with a badge all the time that says TS for top security clearance. You carry that clearance everywhere you go. And so you will be invited or not invited to various briefings, depending on that security level. Most government agencies have what's called security offices. That's people designated to ensure that government employees who get access to certain information are allowed to get access to that information. So that's essentially how it works in terms of functioning of government.
Nick Capodice: [00:14:46] And this gets back to what Juliette said earlier about how there's a lot of need to know and compartmentalization top secret clearance doesn't automatically get you into any briefing.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:14:57] So most of the time you will meet in rooms that are designated by the classification. So the meeting will be designated a certain classification level. So you're actually can't go unless you have that classification level. So you meet and you don't meet in, you know, the hallway you meet in what's called a SCIF,
Nick Capodice: [00:15:15] That's S-C-I-F.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:15:17] That's a secure, compartmentalized information facility. So those are spread throughout the federal government, for example, at Homeland Security, there are, I think, a couple dozen skiffs within the facility, including the secretary's office. And so in that way, there are processes that keep the wrong people out well before you're sitting in the room. So it would be it would mean it was bad planning if someone in the room were given top secret information and they didn't have that classification.
Nick Capodice: [00:15:48] Another big no-no in the skiff is cell phones.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:15:51] The cell phone things make sense. I mean, you can use a cell phone to record anything, right? And what about the president? Does the president just automatically have the highest security clearance? Are there any restrictions on the president's access?
Juliette Kayyem: [00:16:08] No, none. I mean, none that I know of. You know, maybe there's some super squirrely world. No. If the president wanted any information, he could be subject to it. I think people should know, though, is each principle, whether it's, you know, lower assistant secretary, high or secretary or a president. Each principal likes their information given to them in certain ways,
Nick Capodice: [00:16:30] The principals or those officials who have security clearance and the staff who prepare intelligence reports for them. They're known as briefers.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:16:38] And so what will happen is the briefers will amend how they present classified information to the principal, depending on their issues. Great anecdote that I wrote about about Secretary Napolitano, my boss at the Department of Homeland Security. People forget this, but she wanted her first part of her classified briefing. Most of this is not classified to be weather reports because for her before she got to the classified stuff, she wanted her briefings to include unclassified weather reports. And so that's what the agents did.
News clip : [00:17:13] I would encourage you not to focus too much on whether it's a category two or three if you are in the storm path. You won't be able to tell much difference.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:17:28] Now, I have heard that you can have your security clearance revoked, which would be such a bummer. How does that happen?
Juliette Kayyem: [00:17:35] So one is the obvious one, which is you abuse the the obligations you have for having that security clearance and you either abuse it purposefully leaks or whatever else or even on accident.
News clip : [00:17:47] A federal judge today ordered the New York Times to suspend temporarily publication of a series of reports based on a secret Pentagon study of how the United States became involved in the Vietnamese war.
Nick Capodice: [00:17:58] The Pentagon Papers. It is one example of deliberate leaking of top secret information. Nineteen seventy one Daniel Ellsberg smuggled thousands of pages of a classified report about the war in Vietnam, which showed that President Johnson had engaged in expanded secret military operations and lied about it to Congress and the public.
News clip : [00:18:19] I can't regret having done what I knew at the time to be what I ought to do my duty as a citizen. I have no no way that I can regret that.
Nick Capodice: [00:18:30] Ellsberg was charged with conspiracy, espionage and theft of government property. But it doesn't have to be that big. Even small mistakes can cost you your clearance.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:18:40] You know, there are rules about how we treat classified information for a reason, and I'm I'm incredibly unsympathetic to people who even make mistakes. I mean, you are you are briefed on this stuff. You don't take stuff home. You don't put stuff in your briefcase.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:18:54] One of the things we always see in TV shows and movies are people with security clearance getting in trouble for spilling secrets to their partners or spouses. Is that a thing?
Nick Capodice: [00:19:05] Apparently it is Hannah, because there are rules about it.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:19:11] The thing that they tell you, which I always take to heart because my husband also had top secret clearance at a different part of federal government is pillow talk. You cannot casually say, Oh, we're dealing with this, like you actually have to have, you know, sort of enough devotion to your service, to the country, to not disclose to a spouse because the worry is, is someone says to their spouse, you know, oh, we're we're doing x, y and Z or I'm really nervous about that. That spouse casually says to someone else. And then that person ends up being married to a reporter.
Nick Capodice: [00:19:52] For example, former CIA director David Petraeus was investigated after an affair with his biographer, Paula Broadwell, came to light.
News clip: [00:20:00]Meanwhile, FBI investigators continue to pore over Broadwell's computer and boxes of evidence taken from her Charlotte home to determine if she had classified information she was not entitled to possess.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:20:16] The other way it gets revoked is obviously termination. You've got to sign a whole bunch of stuff giving up your security clearance hand in anything that you might have in your office that's designated as secure and be escorted off the facilities.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:20:32] I'm curious about Juliette's opinion on this. Does she believe that the security clearance system works?
Juliette Kayyem: [00:20:37] I do. I do. I mean, I think you hear a lot about it now because there's a certain casualness about classified information or top secret information that you saw in the early days of the Trump administration. He's he's getting briefed at Mar a Lago or they're having meetings that aren't exactly skiffs
News clip : [00:20:55] In Trump and Japan's Prime Minister Abe dining in public at Mar a Lago this weekend, learning North Korea just launched a ballistic missile into the Sea of Japan, the two appearing to handle the preliminary response right there in front of other diners.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:21:12] You know, it's not so much. You worry that the people in the room are talking to reporters is that, you know, unless you have a secure room, whatever is being discussed, including top secret information, could be eavesdropped on by foreign agencies.
Nick Capodice: [00:21:25] However, there was one thing we mentioned earlier that Juliet said, is a challenge for security clearance.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:21:32] Government contractors remember a lot of government work, especially in national security. Intelligence is done by contractors because you just really need a lot of bodies and it's sometimes easier to get them outside. Those people do go through security clearance reviews, but you know, if you look at Edward Snowden and some cases since, that seems to be where there is a loophole.
News clip : [00:21:54] Government investigators thought they knew Edward Snowden. He went through a background check, took a polygraph test and sat through personal interviews. And then the government gave him access to some of its biggest secrets from Edward.
Nick Capodice: [00:22:06] Snowden was the contractor who leaked classified information from the NSA, the National Security Agency, revealing government surveillance programs that had secretly monitored individuals through their phones.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:22:18] I also remember how after President Trump was elected, there was some controversy about his son in law, right? Jared Kushner being given clearance.
Nick Capodice: [00:22:26] Right. Kushner, like Rex Tillerson, had, quote, foreign interests those personal or financial ties to other countries and Kushner's case. He had met with Russian contacts, including the ambassador and the head of a Russian owned bank, in the months leading up to his security clearance investigation.
Juliette Kayyem: [00:22:44] Any other human being who did what he did. And just to remind your listeners, he failed to disclose a lot of these meetings and his first round of disclosures through the classified screening process. Any normal person like you and me who was going through this process, who did that like, you're like so not going to get your security clearance or it's going to be revoked. In other words, if I got security clearance and then it was later learned that I had recent, that's what I have to remind people. These were recent meetings between myself and Russia. My my security clearance would be revoked.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:23:21] It's interesting because you have this ostensibly airtight process to grant someone security clearance and a person like me, or you would have to jump through so many hoops to get there. Right, right. But someone with potentially more red flags than either of us combined. Given how close they are to power, how much power they themselves have can find the loophole into that elite world of security clearance. People have entirely different experiences on getting security clearance based on how much power they have.
Nick Capodice: [00:23:57] This is a system that was put into place to ensure that only people who could be trusted with sensitive information are able to have access to it, especially information that could impact our safety and security. But as with most systems of government, it is designed and run by people, so it's only as strong and secure as the individuals who uphold it.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:24:38] This episode was produced by Christina Phillips are staff includes Jacqui Fulton, Rebecca Lavoie is our executive producer.
Nick Capodice: [00:24:45] Music In this episode by Pro Reese First Bassists, The Waiting World at Large Knoy. Commodity Cats, Blue Note Sessions, Chris Zabriskie and Animal Weapon.
Hannah McCarthy: [00:24:54] You can find every episode of Civics 101 at Civics101podcast.org or wherever you get your podcasts.
Nick Capodice: [00:25:01] Civic's one on one is production of NHPR New Hampshire Public Radio.
