Host Nick Capodice talks to co-host Hannah McCarthy about what it's like having real access to the Supreme Court. (Spoiler alert: those chairs lean WAY back!)
And then the pair pays a very emotional visit to the Lincoln Memorial.
Transcript:
Note: This transcript was AI-generated and may contain errors
Nick Capodice: Doo doo doo doo doo. Oh! You.
Nick Capodice: They are listening to Civics 101 I'm Nick Capodice. So for those of you who have been following along over the past couple of days, you know that we've been sort of sending dispatches from our whirlwind trip to Washington, D.C. in fact, it's not over. I'm still traveling. I'm on the road. Where am I? I'm leaving Manchester, driving a car in New Hampshire, Manchester Regional International Airport. So we've talked with you all about like, who we were going to go visit and who we were going to talk to and the institutions we were going to explore and unpack. But there is some tape that I hadn't shared from the trip that I wanted to share with everyone. Uh, two pieces of tape. And that's what stay is. Two pieces of tape. Some of you may know already on Wednesday, Hannah got a much-coveted press pass to go and hear arguments at the United States Supreme Court. And she did. And I waited outside with bated breath for her to emerge to hear about it. It was a blast, by the way, hanging outside the Supreme Court. And emerge. She did. And before anything, you know, we had another place to go. We had a tight schedule in D.C. so we had to, like immediately start walking towards the white House. So what I did was pull out my recorder and just turn it on and say, what was it like in there? What was it like in this place that we have talked about dozens of times on the show, but not actually been in? And here's what she said. So we talk about the Supreme Court a lot on the show, and you actually went to it for the first time in your life. And I got to know what it was like.
Hannah McCarthy: So it's a funny thing. Like, I wouldn't say I was nervous. I was I was mostly nothing but excited. I wasn't interviewing anybody. I couldn't even bring in my microphone because you're not allowed to bring it into the courtroom. Right? All you can have is pen and paper. And it was just this, like, sort of very classic experience of being a member of the press. You show up, you go into the press room, there are other journalists there. We're all there for the same reason, to sit silently in a room and let a total of 11 people speak pretty much the entire time. It was truly wonderful because the whole thing is like designed with the press in mind, right? It's not like you're in no way a nuisance. You're you're part of the show, basically.
Nick Capodice: So I want to know, like stepping in that front door or the side door, like the special press entrance. You know what happens?
Hannah McCarthy: You go through a metal detector. It was funny. The person was like, do you have any water or anything? And I was like, oh, I do. Can I check it out here? And he was like, no, you got to step outside to do that. And then he goes, oh wait, you press. And I was like, yeah. And he was like, oh, you're good. Go on in. So you walk in, then you have to talk to another security guy and mind you, like, I think if I were a regular it would be a lot easier. But I talked to another security guy and he was like, got to go down that hall. You'll go into that room, you'll ask for your badge. And I did that and everyone was unbelievably helpful. It was all just like crafted to make sure we got there. Right. So I'm sitting in this press room, which looks like a newsroom, and there are wooden cubicles all over, but I'm not allowed to go there because I'm not a regular. I don't have a quote unquote hard pass. And you can kind of tell the hard pass holders from the day pass holders, because the hard pass holders, they were wearing more expensive clothing, like like they just seemed like regulars.
Hannah McCarthy: They were chatting, they were comfortable, their hair looked great. And just this ease of like, yeah, we do this every day. And so but I'm sitting at a table with a bunch of, you would think, like mostly young journalists. It's not that, but it's I think it was a lot of like first timers or like I come here every now and then, but not very often. And we're chatting. And there was definitely this kind of excitement that I think comes along with doing something as a member of the press, where you're not inured to it yet. I've become inured to so many elements of being a journalist, and I think that's important to get really comfortable and feel like you should be there and you have to do your job. And so this first time of being in the Supreme Court, there was definitely this element of like, all right, keep it cool. Keep it cool like you're supposed to be here. Just do your work.
Nick Capodice: But didn't anybody see your like, sense of abject excitement and curiosity and, you know, you're like, Civics 101 ness of it and say, oh, this person needs, like, a little extra help.
Hannah McCarthy: No, I mean, I was very honest about it, though. And I asked later on, someone who regularly covered the Supreme Court. I was like, got any note taking tips? Because, like, I did not practice my shorthand before this and everyone was really kind.
Nick Capodice: All right, so you're inside. You get a seat. Tell me what? Like the room was like. Tell me what it was like seeing, you know, the justice's file in what happened next.
Hannah McCarthy: Okay, so they walk you down the hall and up this long marble staircase, past all of the members of the public who've been waiting in line outside to also go in. And the members of the public are getting this spiel about where to put their bags and everything, and you just get to march past, like, you just sort of flow past and you're going to a different part of this space. And it was I know I keep saying this, but yet again, it is necessary for this place to facilitate the free exercise of the press. Right? So you go up these stairs, you go through another metal detector. And at this point, all you have is your notebook and your pens and your day pass or your hard pass. You are walk into this room and oh, by the way, they also like check your notebook the way they would check a bag.
Nick Capodice: Wait, really? Like like don't write anything in it.
Hannah McCarthy: No, no. They look through it to make sure that you haven't secreted anything into the court. Oh. Um, yeah.
Nick Capodice: Like a little mini tape recorder or something.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah, exactly. And then you go in and there are two rows of chairs in this hall that's adjacent to the courtroom. Now, the courtroom is a big square, right. And there are four giant marble columns along each wall. And so there are like two rows of chairs. And then there are these little groups of chairs sort of tucked in between the columns. And then in front of that, there are two courtroom benches where the regulars get to sit, the people, members of the press who were there all the time. And so I got to sit in one of those little groups of chairs, partially obscured view, you know, but still you are craning your neck and you see the nine chairs.
Nick Capodice: Can you tell me what the chairs look like?
Hannah McCarthy: They are these very tall, these like, high backed leather and wooden chairs, which I later came to learn lean way back.
Nick Capodice: I want to know about that recline.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah, I will tell you about that. And, um, and you're sitting there and you're chatting with other journalists, and the courtroom is in front of you, so. Right. You're sitting against a wall, you're perpendicular to the courtroom. Um, and there are members of the public and other people who are permitted to be there to watch the case, to watch the arguments. And then you hear this. So, you know, there's like quiet, quiet chattering in the room and you hear. Coming out of some person's mouth, which means shut up! Be quiet. It's about time. There's a giant clock over the bench. The nine justices bench, I mean. And then we wait and we're chatting and chatting. Chattering again gets a little louder. And then again you hear, shush! And this time one of the security guards in there basically explained what was going to happen. You must remain seated, except for, of course, when the justices enter. Yep. And, um, at the end, you will be an officer will take you where you need to go. And then there's like this electronic ding. And. This woman and I forget the name of the role, but you hear? Oyez, oyez, oyez.
Nick Capodice: And she's the chanter. I think it's the chanter.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah. And the justices come in and, Nick, I'm telling you, the first experience I have is not. Oh, wow. It's. Oh, right. Those are people. Oh, those are just people.
Nick Capodice: These guys. Yeah.
Hannah McCarthy: And you've seen their faces a million times. If you're someone like me, you've heard their voices a million times, and it's there's still some excitement, but very quickly it's down to business. And there's like the coded language of the courtroom.
Nick Capodice: What do you mean by that?
Hannah McCarthy: Well, I mean, so the justices. So you stand, the justices come in, they sit, you sit. And, you know, God save this honorable court. Oh, there's like a there's a bar ceremony.
Nick Capodice: Wait, What do you mean, a bar?
Hannah McCarthy: I had no idea this happened, Nick. So there are lawyers who are being admitted to the bar. Oh, my goodness. Admittances. And someone who's already a lawyer stands up and is like, you know, Onorable. Uh, Chief Justice Roberts, I'm gonna mess up the words.
Nick Capodice: I submit these names.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah. And the justices, without fail, are like, you know, we welcome so and so to the bar.
Nick Capodice: Oh, I think.
Hannah McCarthy: Those are some some.
Nick Capodice: Samoans. Yeah. Simoleons. Samoa's real quick. I want to if you're looking at Michelangelo's chapel, there's like, a little buzz in the crowd and there's a man who stands there and just goes Silencio. Yeah. And then it gets quiet for a minute. It feels like that's what this show is like. Yeah. All right, so the bar ceremony happens.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah, I have to share. There was one delightful moment where one woman who's already a lawyer stands up and she says, um, I'd like to submit my daughter so and so. Oh, and the Chief Justice Roberts is like, you know, we welcome your daughter.
Nick Capodice: Did the crowd go Aww?
Hannah McCarthy: There was a little giggle because how often do you break with form? Right. Yeah. But the coded language is like. There are words that indicate to the advocates who are going to get up and present the arguments that say, okay, now go. Okay. So it's like counselor, advocate, like I actually don't remember. I'll have to listen back to the tape. Um, not my tape. The tape of the courtroom. And that person goes and now, technically, the advocates for each side, which is what we call the lawyers, have half an hour. Do they use half an hour? No. What do you think?
Nick Capodice: I think they use every second and then go a little more, maybe.
Hannah McCarthy: Okay, so it's half an hour for the advocate to present half an hour for the justices to question. What do you think is more important?
Nick Capodice: Questioning.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah, they rattle it off as quickly as possible. So the advocate representing Turner was his last name representing the state of Idaho goes. And this is when I learned that those seats go way back. Lean way back. Because here let's cross hold on a second. Just so this is where I learned that the seats lean way back, because I notice that Clarence Thomas is leaning so far back you can barely see him. He's almost like under the desk. Wow. And then I noticed that Alito is also starting to lean way back. Right. It's very interesting. And Clarence Thomas mostly has his head in his hand. And Alito is doing a lot of like, bouncing back and forth. Yeah. So I'm going to go into more details of like what actually happened during the oral arguments in our episode on this. I won't get into that now, but I do just want to share, um, you know, so there's the advocate for Idaho, the advocate for the United States. Advocate Prelogar.
Nick Capodice: Right. She's the solicitor general.
Hannah McCarthy: I think they both go. Right. But I just want to say the excitement that you feel suddenly you do have to do your job. What's my job? To sit, observe and take notes, but also because I cannot live transcribe everything that's going on. It's some of the most active listening I've ever done, and I interview people on a daily basis because you have to like, let your brain take in a full sentence and decide what of that you're going to put down on the page. Now, of course, you get those oral arguments later, but if you're a member of the press who immediately goes back to the press room, which so many did and wrote a breakdown which is just like so exciting and so like, it must require such sharp, quick work, you know? So you have to be able to get that out really quickly and kind of break down what you believe you saw, because no one's making any decisions. You just have to say, well, based on my understanding of all of these justices, everything I know about them, everything they said, this is where it seems like they're leaning, right. So so the excitement kind of dies down and gives way to like, the pain in your wrist because you just you're writing furiously.
Nick Capodice: We don't write that much anymore.
Hannah McCarthy: No, no. Coming out of that courtroom, it was like I had a true moment where I felt like I could happily spend the rest of my life doing exactly this, because there was this feeling being in that court, listening to these arguments happen that was so deeply satisfying to me as someone who really, really likes to read or listen to oral arguments and read or listen to the ways that justices break things down, the sheer pleasure of having that mental experience in that moment and feeling. I think I described this to you, but there's no way you can replicate the experience of being a human being in the same room as another human being. There are things that you feel, you know, the magical frisson.
Nick Capodice: Yeah, we've listened on Oyez to thousands, you know, of arguments over the years, hundreds of arguments over the years. I should say. This is so that's what I wanted to know is like, what's it like? It's like there is a difference. Seeing it in person.
Hannah McCarthy: There's a huge difference because you can hear tone, there's hearing tone, and then there's watching even the subtlest of body language. And of course, these justices are so practiced, right. They also, though, are in positions of such power that they could kind of give everything away. And I feel like it would be okay, like, but you could absolutely. Whatever annoyance you might have heard on a piece of tape to see annoyance, to see frustration, or to see gentleness. To see a justice. Basically, noticing that an advocate wasn't going far enough was maybe not expressing themselves clearly. A justice might say. It seems to me that what you're saying is this right? Giving that advocate something, or you might have a justice using that same turn of phrase in a completely different way, basically saying like so it seems to me that what you're saying is this. And like, yeah, you could hear that in the tape, but it's just so different when you're actually in the room. And it's also so different because you're, you're in a room with so many people, all of whom shift ever so slightly and take their breath ever so slightly. When something means something, you hear the entire press area right furiously when something's important. So let's just say I was writing one thing, and suddenly I hear everyone writing furiously. I'm like, I gotta go. Yeah, yeah. So.
Nick Capodice: Was there any laughter at any point? Would anybody, like, crack a joke?
Hannah McCarthy: I yeah, yeah. There was a moment where the advocate for the US, the Solicitor general, and she's being asked a question by, I believe, either Gorsuch or Amy Coney Barrett. And the way that they phrased something almost made it sound as though, um, Texas law could somehow, like, meaningfully. Basically, it prompted the advocate to say, essentially, to be clear, like our jurisdiction overrides their jurisdiction because I represent the United States of America, and that's Texas. And there was a quick little you know, we all know that.
Nick Capodice: Yeah, the federal law is supreme to state law, basically.
Hannah McCarthy: I mean, that was the whole that was a big part of this case. Yeah. And it is fascinating being in a courtroom where that is essentially being debated and the ways in which it was being debated. With The advocate for Idaho often coming back to an idea of essentially state sovereignty and federalism. And ooh, and an advocate tries to explain federalism to a justice of the Supreme Court. That's an interesting moment, because that justice is like, yeah, I know.
Nick Capodice: I am well aware.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Capodice: Any last thoughts you have about the day in the court? Your day in court? You're going to have your day in court. Mccarthy and you had it. Anything that surprised you later on that night thinking about it?
Hannah McCarthy: No, but not something that came to me later. But I, I definitely think that anyone who has any interest in what goes on in there and or any either strong or weak preconceived notions, be it Fury or Worshipfulness, I strongly encourage you to go to any one of these if you can, because being a part of the process, seeing it in person will either reaffirm for you exactly what you think you feel or it will make you. It's sort of the saucer that cools the tea. I think that an experience like that could very likely temper or shift your perspective in a way that you will only find helpful, right? It will only make you a more informed person who better understands what is happening.
Nick Capodice: It's like our whole lives we've been listening to the live album and you actually got to go to the concert, right?
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Capodice: All right. That's when Hannah had her day in court. Uh, we've got to take a quick break here on Civics 101. When we come back, I'm going to share another. Nick asks Hannah questions. Piece of tape. And it's about a place that's very important. It's important to our nation. It's important to our show. But it has a special import to Hannah specifically. And I wanted to ask her why. And that's coming up right after the break on Civics 101. 20. We're back. You're listening to Civics 101.
Nick Capodice: You're listening to Nick shouting into his phone while he's driving in a car. Reporting on our whirlwind field trip to Washington, D.C., Hannah started working at Civics 101, I think in 2016. I'm sorry if I got that wrong, Hannah. I started in 2017. Neither of us were hosts. We were, you know, producers. I was doing education, outreach and a little bit of production. Um, she was reporting on other stuff. And then we became co-hosts. And pretty early on, Hannah let me know that there is a place in Washington, D.C. that without fail. brings her to a place of real capital T true emotion. More than any other monument, any memorial, any holding place of a foundational document. And this place is the Lincoln Memorial. So what I wanted to do in our last night in town was go there with her and ask her why. What is it about this place? And she told me.
Nick Capodice: If this were a normal radio show. I'd ask tell me what you see. Describe the scene for our listeners.
Hannah McCarthy: If we were a normal radio show. Oh, some of the stairs are under construction. It makes it no less grand. Well, I will tell you what I see. I see a temple that we built to honor. Some would say a man, given the fact that there is a massive statue of him inside, much like Zeus. But you know what? For me. Yeah, because is life not what we make of it. For me, this is not a temple dedicated to a person I know. It's called the Lincoln Memorial. Yeah, but I think we are a nation founded on ideas that did come from the mouths of pretty much men. But the thing of it is, like, all those men die, and a lot of them did really bad stuff, and still they leave behind things sometimes that the people who continue to live in this nation, generation after generation after generation, are allowed to decide what to do with. So talk about life being what you make of it. I know so many of us feel disempowered, but over the long arc, or rather brief arc of United States history, I would have to say that a lot of it has been what we demanded, what we made of it.
Nick Capodice: It's not what was given to us, it was not what was granted to us and our foundational documents. It's what we fought for and kept the idea of, I mean, I can say a more perfect union, but it really is.
Nick Capodice: Did you ever have to memorize the Gettysburg Address and perform? I didn't either. I used to read Ripley's Believe It or Not like the old 1950s editions. Big surprise right? And one of them was it was a picture of Abraham Lincoln looking really mean. And it said Lincoln was wrong.
Nick Capodice: And I was like, oh my God, what was he wrong about? And it said, he said, the world will little note nor long remember what we say here.
Nick Capodice: And it's the most famous speech in history.
Hannah McCarthy: I actually think the the world will little note nor long remember if that. Is that exactly what it is?
Nick Capodice: I mean, I just I don't remember it so well. I think it is where we can see it on the wall. Hold on.
Hannah McCarthy: The world will little note nor long remember what we say here. But it can never forget what they did here. Just because this speech is carved into stone in a temple. I don't think that that means will little note nor long remember these words that I'm saying right now. And even if it does, he's right. Because he understands. Maybe. Maybe he understands that history is very long. Things crumble and fall. I don't think that he necessarily thought that perhaps the human species would. Not always be a part of Earth's history. But the important point is like, I think maybe that whole sentiment is captured in the way that I feel about all of this, which is that perhaps actual words are remembered, but I, I surely hope that while we know who said it, we're not actually worshiping the animal who issued those sentiments like we are worshiping, perhaps, or we're respecting. We're honoring what came from the words that that animal happened to speak out loud. I'm not calling Abraham Lincoln an animal. I'm saying that we are all flesh and blood and just highly evolved animals, and some of us do remarkable things.
Hannah McCarthy: And yes, many of us are rightfully honored. And I'm not saying Lincoln shouldn't be rightfully honored, but I am saying so many people take issue with Lincoln as a human being. Every human being does bad stuff. Every human being does things that we can say, get rid of them like they're the worst. That. But like you could even say that negates it all, but but it doesn't negate it all because someone heard words. Someone was a leader and did a bunch of stuff, and it resulted in, first and foremost for him, the preservation of the union. That might have been the chief goal of the person who, in effect, like, fostered and led the Union's victory in the Civil War until his death. But it was also that this country was continuing to practice the most disgusting, abhorrent, horrifying, the sort of thing that we should be self-flagellating over. We were doing it and we got rid of it. We fought a war because of it. People say it wasn't because of that or it was because of the economy. What was the economy based on? Just out of curiosity.
Nick Capodice: One of the reasons we're here is because you told me that you always cry when you come to the Lincoln. And I, you know. Why is that? What is it about this place? That fills you with emotion.
Hannah McCarthy: I think every time I've been here, and I think sometimes I remember it and I say, you know, we're like the first time I was here as an adult. I wasn't wondering how far those principles and those foundations could be pushed. And I have wondered it since. But actually, standing here, I'm feeling the exact same way I've always felt in this space, which is it's so fragile. And, um. And I think this place exists. To remind us. Of how fragile it is. I'm not talking about patriotism. I actually don't know what patriotism means. But I think sometimes even pretending like this country is what we hope it is, or could be, is sometimes the only thing that keeps it afloat. And being in a space like this, I feel like you are face to face with the the brutal truth that all it takes is for someone to bucket. Right? And then there could very well go. I can't fully explain it. I'm a cynic in a lot of ways. I'll tell you, art doesn't really make me cry. And if I cry at a movie, it's totally by surprise. Certainly, like a building ought not make me cry. Especially a building so teeming with loud people who, by and large. You know, I think a lot of them aren't paying a lot of attention. I'm glad they're here. This is just a myth.
Hannah McCarthy: We're standing in a myth. But that's at the aged heart of anything that functions is myth, you know? And sometimes it functions for good and sometimes it functions for ill. And I suppose being in a temple that I think is reminding us. I don't know, a very important feeling that we ought to have, that this was hard won, and it will be hard to keep, and it could be easily gone, and that there are important ideas that people do something with. And and it's not individuals. It's not lawmakers, even for better or for worse, whether they like it or not, this country is full of people. They do a lot of work to support us, but we also repeatedly demand a lot. And sometimes the cries get loud enough. And whether you like what the cries are for or not. That is sometimes what can bend things, I guess I don't know, or maybe it's just the threat of war, and maybe it's just the threat of the loss of power. Maybe it's all just a cynical as you want it to be. All I know is that I come into this space. It's a kind of emotional experience that I can't compare to any other I've ever had in my entire life. In this space. I've never felt anything like what I feel.
Hannah McCarthy: When I'm here. I was, you know, like, why do I stand here and cry? Because of my mother and father. My grandparents and the people who taught me. At least what they thought was right and what I continued to think was right. And then eventually I. I took a job. Trying to teach people. The truth, because I think that's essential to a functioning everything life, you know, not just a functioning country. I think it's essential to a functioning mind. That's it. I got nothing else for you.
Nick Capodice: That's good. Also look around you.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah, yeah. The kids. Yeah.
Nick Capodice: Well, that is it for this dispatch from DC. I mean, I'm not technically in DC and I'm sad I'm not in DC. I'm miserable. I had such a fun time there. The whole team had a blast. We did a lot, a lot, a lot of stuff. Uh, stay tuned to the coming weeks. You're going to hear a bunch of episodes of people we interviewed on our trip there. Uh, they're going to be great, I promise. This episode was produced by the inimitable Rebecca Lavoie, our executive producer, and so, so, so much more. And I am Nick Capodice for Hannah McCarthy and senior producer Christina Phillips. Music in this episode from Epidemic Sound and by Chris Zabriskie. Civics 101 is a production of NPR, New Hampshire Public Radio. All right.
Nick Capodice: Back on the road.