In 2018, we did an episode on Presidential Transitions. Now that we have had an election, we decided to revisit it. There are nearly 4,000 positions that a president appoints after their inauguration. How do they do it? How long does it take? And why has Donald Trump repeatedly refused to sign the "memoranda of understanding" regarding the transition from the U.S. General Services Administration?
Our guest is Max Stier, President and CEO of the Partnership for Public Service, which runs the Center for Presidential Transition.
Our show started as an explainer of governmental systems in a transition such as the one we're in now. Send us an email at civics101@nhpr.org if you want us to explain any facet of how our democracy works.
Transcript
Nick Capodice: Hey, everyone. Nick here. It's like 522 on November 7th. I'm recording this as I'm walking around, I forgot to account for daylight savings time. It's so dark and I'm wearing a black hoodie, so got to be careful. I'm sure a lot of you out there know the story of how Civics 101 started. If [00:00:30] you don't, I'll just tell you real quick. Shortly after Trump was elected as president, the first time, the CPU, which is the rather unfun initialism for the people who make podcasts at NPR, we're like sitting around and talking about something that was happening involving the Secretary of state. And then somebody bravely said, what is the secretary of State do again? And the room, I'll wait for this truck to go by. It's a big truck. [00:01:00] And the room was silent. Somebody was like, do any of you know what the Secretary of State does? And then Logan. Shannon. Logan. Shannon, thank you for my job. A producer at NPR. Logan Shannon wrote down on a post-it note. Schoolhouse Rock for adults. Question mark. Somebody I don't know who has that post-it note in a frame somewhere. But [00:01:30] that's how the show started. It was explaining how systems worked in a nonpartizan way. After the election of somebody for whom frankly, democratic norms, you know, were not the norm.
Nick Capodice: So, you know, let's just understand how things work. Here we are. And when I say, here we are, here we are again. So the election was a couple days ago. Donald Trump won. And so we're [00:02:00] going to ask you again, what do you want to know? What systems do you think need explaining? Now we can't answer what's going to happen. Nobody knows for anything. Anything at all. But we can do is explain systems that have existed for 250 years, or have evolved to what they are over 250 years. And we can do it by interviewing the people who understand those systems best. So [00:02:30] I hope you'll consider sending us an email. Just send it to Civics 101 at nhpr.org and tell us what you want to know about, and we'll get started right away. All right. Here's presidential transitions. And oh, before before we launch into it, Hannah and I recorded this on Election Day. We were in the studios here at Concord. We were all, [00:03:00] you know, civic stop. So we had no idea what was going to pan out that night, even though the interview I did with Max Dyer was last week. Everything he says still holds true. All right. Drop us a line.
Enjoy the episode. Yeah.
Nick Capodice: You're listening to Civics 101. I'm Nick Capodice.
Hannah McCarthy: I'm Hannah McCarthy, and.
Nick Capodice: Today we are talking about what happens when one president leaves and [00:03:30] another comes in. We're talking presidential transitions. Hannah, real quick, do you want to tell everyone when we're recording this?
Hannah McCarthy: Yep. We are recording this on Election Day on November 5th, 2024. Nick, did you vote because I voted?
Nick Capodice: I did, I voted this morning. It was great.
Hannah McCarthy: All right, so we are at the studio. There are reporters dashing all around the state, and we just talked to Vermont Public Radio about this year's election. So there's a lot going on. [00:04:00]
Nick Capodice: All this to say, we do not know anything about the election results when we're recording these words that you're hearing now. Future US does know. Maybe you do too, but we are in the dark. Hannah, I'm hesitant to play this. Do you remember this?
Virginia Prescott: Both of you guys are theater. You have theater background? Both of you. Right? We do indeed. Are you going to do a little song and dance thing? We're going to.
Nick Capodice: Do a Civics 101 Christmas carol, for.
Virginia Prescott: Sure. Yes.
Hannah McCarthy: Absolutely. Oh. So green. It's not easy being [00:04:30] green. I was this, like, six years ago.
Nick Capodice: It was just about Civics 101 did an episode on presidential transitions in 2018, and it was the episode where the former host of the show, Virginia Prescott, announced she was leaving and that Hannah, you and I would be the new hosts. Do you remember how it felt when we made that episode?
Hannah McCarthy: I remember feeling like I didn't want to disappoint anybody, because Civics 101 already meant a lot to me, and I already really, really believed in it. And I felt [00:05:00] like this huge responsibility had been handed to me and I desperately wanted to get it right.
Nick Capodice: Yeah, I didn't know what the show was going to be. I didn't know what was going to be like with me and with you together. I was nervous, I think I was just staring at my shoes the whole time. I was terrified, but yet here we are.
Hannah McCarthy: Here we are.
Nick Capodice: Well, we've got a presidential transition that is gonna happen. So I reached out to the same guy we spoke to all those years ago. And here he is. [00:05:30]
Max Stier: My name is Max Stier. I'm the president and CEO of the partnership for Public Service. We are a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization dedicated to a better government and a stronger democracy.
Nick Capodice: And Max's organization is the one that runs the center for Presidential Transition.
Hannah McCarthy: So, Nick, we have talked about the peaceful transfer of power before. Actually, a few times on this show, but this is the actual process of one person leaving the office and another [00:06:00] person coming in. Does the president elect have any powers before they're inaugurated? I mean, I'm assuming the sitting president, you know, continues to be the person with the presidential powers. But I guess I've never actually answered this question for myself.
Max Stier: It's a very, very important point. And that is that after the election, we still have one president, and that one president is the incumbent who got elected four years earlier and is president until January [00:06:30] 20th, until Inauguration Day. And they do their job, their job, meaning that they keep us safe, that they are responsible for those 450 plus departments for our national security, for all the issues that have to be addressed. And sometimes there is confusion in people's minds, including allies and enemies abroad, as to who actually is president. But make no mistake, it's one president at a time, and it continues to be the incumbent until [00:07:00] the new person is actually sworn in.
Nick Capodice: So the term for an outgoing president between Election Day and Inauguration Day, that liminal space is a so-called lame duck. That's an expression that was first used in this way in the 1920s. And it is worth adding here that the lame duck administrations used to be a heck of a lot longer. Inauguration day used to be in March. However, the 20th amendment, ratified in 1933, moved it to January. Now, [00:07:30] I want to make something very clear here, though. Even though a president isn't a president until the inauguration, the work for that transition happens much earlier.
Hannah McCarthy: All right. What is the first step? What is the first thing that an incoming president has to do?
Max Stier: Well, the first thing that has to happen when a new president comes to power is they need to be prepared to take over the most complicated, important organization not just in our country, but on the planet and probably in history. And [00:08:00] when I say that, that means the United States government and the United States government is north of $6 trillion, spend 450 plus organizations, 3.5 million people. When you count the uniformed services and civilians, 4000 political appointees, 1400 of which require Senate confirmation. So it is not. You walk in and you just start on day one by coming into the Oval Office and you're good to go. You've had to do a ton [00:08:30] of planning to be able to actually take over our government in a considered and, and a capable way. And this is about our safety as a country. Uh, you know, no small beans.
Hannah McCarthy: What does Max mean when he says that it's about our safety as a country?
Nick Capodice: Well, picture a restaurant, right? You've got chefs, kitchen staff, front of house staff, maybe including a bartender. You've got a menu, [00:09:00] a reservation system. You got all that. If you were in one night to replace every single person who worked in the restaurant, you put a new coat of paint on the walls, you design a new menu, you change out every computer you empty and refill the walk in, put in a new POS system.
Hannah McCarthy: That is the point of sale system, by the way. It is what waitstaff use to send their orders to the kitchen, and learning a new one can be tricky.
Nick Capodice: Thank you Anna. It's a dangerous initialism. There I was always I was so terrible at the POS. I was not a good waiter. [00:09:30] Surprisingly, I was a terrible waiter. Oh, I was.
Hannah McCarthy: A I got to say, I was a tremendous, tremendous server.
Nick Capodice: Why am I not surprised? If you did all that, I do not think that there is a restaurant in the world that would be ready to open in 24 hours. I don't care if you're Carmy Berzatto. You can't do it, cousin.
Speaker5: 45 minutes to open, chefs. Yes, chef.
Nick Capodice: But America is not a restaurant. It cannot [00:10:00] take a few weeks to get the US Armed Forces and the Treasury Department and the rest of the 3.5 million staff of the executive branch used to new management. It has to be working smoothly. The second the oath of office is taken.
Hannah McCarthy: Heard? Yes, chef. Yes, chef.
Speaker5: Say it back, please, chef.
Hannah McCarthy: And there are 4000 political appointees who have to be appointed when the new president takes office.
Nick Capodice: Yes. And 1200 of them have to be confirmed by the Senate. And that number is [00:10:30] high. But it's not how it used to be. So we used to operate under what was called the spoils system, where the president appointed almost every executive employee.
Max Stier: It was, you know, President Jackson that started the spoils system in the 1820s. And it ended in the assassination of President Garfield by a disgruntled job seeker.
My name is Charles Guiteau. My name I'll never deny.
Speaker6: To leave my.
Hannah McCarthy: Oh, I remember this from another episode. [00:11:00] Charles Guiteau shot President Garfield because Guiteau believed he was unfairly snubbed over an appointment as an ambassador. And long story short, this led to the creation of the civil service, where people are appointed not politically but based on their skills and knowledge, ostensibly.
Nick Capodice: Very well done.
Max Stier: And there was a the progressive movement where Americans appreciated that their government needed to be apolitical and professional. But the political [00:11:30] appointments still continued. People have just accepted a, what I would say, an unhealthy level of political appointees for quite some time. They really haven't appreciated why that is a problem. And the counter-argument is that you want a government that is actually responsive to the democratically elected leaders. The reality is you don't need 4000 people to make that occur. And it is counterproductive, both because it's super difficult to get them in place and because they [00:12:00] are not as expert in understanding how to actually run the system.
Hannah McCarthy: How long does it typically take for these 4000 appointments to happen?
Nick Capodice: I am going to get to that right after a quick break.
Hannah McCarthy: But before that break, if you are someone who wants to know the story of the folk song about Charlie Guiteau, that is the sort of thing that we put in our newsletter. Extra credit. It's fun, it's free, it comes out every two weeks and you can sign up at our website, civics101podcast.org. We're [00:12:30] back. We're talking about presidential transitions. And, Nick, you were about to tell me how long it takes for the 4000 political appointees to be appointed.
Nick Capodice: I was, and I got to start by saying it depends on the job, but more importantly, whether that job needs to be confirmed by the Senate. Here again is Max Stier.
Max Stier: If it's one of those positions that require Senate confirmation, the top jobs in government, if you're the cabinet secretary [00:13:00] or the deputy secretary or the agency head, you then have to have the United States Senate agree that you are the right person, and that requires you to be vetted, to go through a security clearance, to have your financial holdings examined by the Office of Government Ethics for you to have a hearing before the Committee of Jurisdiction in the Senate, and then ultimately, for you to have a vote by the entire Senate, which you have to get a majority of the senators to support you. So it can be a very [00:13:30] lengthy process. Unfortunately, it has become an even more onerous process so that the time it takes, on average, to get confirmed in one of these jobs is now over 191 days, 191 days.
Hannah McCarthy: Yeah.
Nick Capodice: And that is a number that has increased over the last few decades. Hannah. It is double the amount of time that it took during the George W Bush administration.
Max Stier: That means that there are some people, like the cabinet secretaries, that often get in very quickly, and [00:14:00] then there are a lot of people for whom it can take more than a year. And again, imagine what that means for the individual where they are in purgatory, wondering what's going to happen. Very difficult for them to even continue their prior job because they can't create any conflicts for themselves. And the institutions that need running are waiting for someone that isn't there, and they have an acting official who is the, you know, proverbial [00:14:30] substitute teacher and a substitute teacher that's around for a very long period of time. So it is a broken system and it is getting more broken.
Hannah McCarthy: Did Max have an example of a political appointment that he feels maybe should not be political.
Nick Capodice: He certainly did.
Max Stier: And this is particularly true for the kinds of organizations that are operational as opposed to policy in emphasis. So an example of this would be the Veterans Health [00:15:00] Administration. It's a hospital system, the largest one in our country and probably in the world. And you need a hospital administrator running it. That should not be a political job because it's a political and Senate confirmed job. There are large gaps in time and between leaders and the leaders that get appointed, who eventually get in place don't last very long so they can't actually get the job done. Well.
Hannah McCarthy: I'm assuming a lot of these people [00:15:30] who are hired after the transition need security clearance, right?
Nick Capodice: Right. Many of them do. And we have a whole episode on the process and the many levels of clearance.
Hannah McCarthy: What about the president themselves? Do they just get access to all of the top secret stuff when they take office?
Nick Capodice: They pretty much do.
Max Stier: So a president is a little special in multiple ways, and that includes with security clearance. And the president has the right to [00:16:00] access to everything. And they also the security clearance process is really defined by executive action rather than legislative action. So the president has full control over that entire architecture of classified information and how and who is ultimately available to. There are lots of rules and regulations that have been created over time that are quite important. There are certainly places that it can be improved, but it is really [00:16:30] important to respect the process itself and the professionals who are responsible for overseeing it. So the transition support that the federal government gives is extremely important. It provides candidates with access to cyber protection, to office space, and ultimately to information about what is happening in the government that that a president elect and his or her team will need to know [00:17:00] in order to be able to be ready on day one, to run those agencies and think about it, the world is complicated. There's a lot going on. You would want to. And if you're flying the airplane, you need to know not only how to fly an airplane, but what the weather is there, where you're going, all sorts of information. And that's effectively what we hope to have with new leaders inside government agencies. So in this cycle, I think one of the big questions that [00:17:30] has been raised that the law does not really account for is the fact that as of now, the Trump transition team has not entered into the agreements with the governmental entities that run transitions that it needs to do in order to have access to the critical information that will allow a potential, you know, future Trump team to be ready to govern on day one.
Hannah McCarthy: I just want to make sure I have this right. The Harris Walz [00:18:00] campaign agreed to work with the center for Presidential Transitions, but the Trump Vance campaign did not. Correct. I don't actually know why. Why is that?
Max Stier: It appears as if some of the reasons include that they do not want to limit the amount of money that they can solicit from individuals for paying for their transition operation, which would be limited to $5,000 if they signed that agreement. And they have to disclose who those donors [00:18:30] are.
Nick Capodice: Secondly, Donald Trump signed an executive order in 2020 that redesignated 20,000 civil servants to quote at will Employees, this meant they could be fired. Now, President Biden reversed that order, but Donald Trump has vowed to reinstitute and expand it to 50,000 if elected.
Speaker7: First, I will immediately reissue my 2020 executive order restoring the president's authority to remove rogue bureaucrats, [00:19:00] and I will wield that power very aggressively.
Max Stier: There are other requirements that appear to be problematic for them, including that they would need to have an ethics plan that would include a description of how the president, him or herself, would avoid conflicts of interest, financial conflicts of interest. But be that as it may, whatever the ultimate reasons, they have not yet entered into those agreements that were the target. [00:19:30] Dates were September 1st and October 1st. So we are well past the dates in which that should have happened. And the closer we get to the post-election period, the the more and more damaging this can become. We are in uncharted territory here and scary uncharted territory. So, uh, it is it is not the way, um, the transition process was designed to run, and it's not the way to maximize the best handoff of power. [00:20:00] If indeed, uh, former President Trump wins again.
Hannah McCarthy: Regardless of the winner of the election happening right this very second. This is something that will continue to be a struggle. Every 4 or 8 years. You have to turn over that restaurant no matter what, and you have got to do it fast. Um, I'm wondering, you know, is there any way to make transitions simpler, easier? Yeah.
Nick Capodice: Max [00:20:30] had some suggestions, and unsurprisingly, it was his view that we are a healthier democracy if we do not use the spoil system.
Max Stier: First and foremost, we should have many, many, many, many, many fewer Senate confirmed positions. 1300 is crazy. We also, frankly, should have many fewer political appointees. If you look at other democracies, they count their political appointees at most in the tens. You know, maybe you get to 100. And [00:21:00] we are unique amongst democracies and certainly are our peers in having 4000 or even, you know, counting in thousands. It is a vestige of the spoils system, and it's not a good one. And it means that we delay getting leaders in place. It also means that we have fewer people who are concerned about the long term health of the institutions that they're responsible for, and [00:21:30] it means that, frankly, we typically have people who are less qualified in these leadership positions than we could have if we actually had more apolitical, professional choices for those folks.
Nick Capodice: That's it for the episode on presidential transitions. It's not it for presidential transitions, though. This episode is made by me Nick Capodice with Hannah McCarthy. Christina Phillips [00:22:00] is Civics 101 senior producer. Rebecca Lavoie is our executive producer. Music. In this episode from Chris Zabriskie, blue Dot Sessions, and Epidemic Sound. Civics 101 is a production of NPR, New Hampshire Public Radio. And again, we're going back to our roots. If you want to know anything, send us an email Civics 101 at nhpr.org. And I hope you're well.
I really do. All right.